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怪獸類型是男孩遇見女孩的故事

我認為怪獸電影是關於「男孩遇見女孩」的故事。

迫田

在前一集裡，我們談到了不僅僅是精心製作的作品，還有關於創作貼近角色的作品，以及しの所重視的角色的情感變化，通過身體動作表達這些情感變化，角色如何克服困境以獲得某種偉大的東西，還有表達和賦予這些事物力量的方式。

In the previous episode, we talked about not only well-made works, but also about creating works that are close to the characters and the emotional movements of the character, the importance of Shino-san as a character, expressing those emotional movements through physical movements, and how characters overcome their circumstances to achieve something great. We discussed the way of expressing and giving power to such things.

原田

是的，沒錯。我真的很享受聽這些有趣的故事，實際上，我在聽的時候一直在想第一集出現的諸星大二郎，對於しの來說，諸星大二郎是什麼呢？我知道我和しの對於諸星大二郎作品的看法肯定是完全不同的，但我覺得這兩個本來不會相遇的世界或思維方式，卻在某些地方相遇，產生了裂痕、反應、驚訝和混亂，這些在諸星大二郎的作品中似乎是很常見的素材。

So within that, there are things like “Oh, what if a bird that doesn’t know how to fly learns about the sky?” or “What if people living underground who don’t know about the existence of birds learn about them?” It’s about encountering the boundary line between different worlds. Even in my own experiences, I’ve always been more interested in the phenomenon that occurs between two things rather than simply focusing on one thing. I search for that space. It’s like stories are born there. I was listening while thinking that maybe Shino-san also has that sense.

しの

啊，對呢。這真的可能是這樣。其實我有讀過諸星大二郎的作品，但並不太熟悉，基本上只讀過我感興趣的作品。怎麼說呢，像《未知的遭遇》或怪獸類型的作品，其實是這個世界的異物，某種危險的東西，或者是被排斥的事物、障礙或災害的隱喻，這些都是在面對這些瞬間的時候所表現出來的。而我卻把這些誤解為「男孩遇見女孩」，你明白嗎？

Ah, I see. That could really be the case. I actually have read some of Osamu Dazai’s works, but I’m not that familiar with them. I’ve only read the ones that caught my interest, so I’m not that well-versed in it. But what should I say… works like “Close Encounters of the Third Kind” or monster movies, they’re basically metaphors for something foreign in this world, like something dangerous or an outcast or an obstacle or a disaster, right? It’s about those moments when you encounter something like that. And I mistakenly associate it with “Boy Meets Girl,” you know what I mean?

迫田

就是那個，《金剛》……。

That’s it, right? “King Kong”…

しの

就是這樣。所以我認為世上的怪獸類型故事都是無法實現的邂逅。而本田的作品則是將這種情感推向極致，變成了心中相伴的故事。因為如果沒有一起死去的人，故事就無法收尾。像《第一號氣體人》就是這樣。這正是我所感受到的，但我反而對這種情感感到吸引。這兩個人絕對不可能在一起。比如說，能愛上鳥的人並不多吧。雖然我相信有很多人覺得牠們可愛，但對我來說，這種存在或現象是有些不相容的。我想我的癖好可能有些奇怪，但我對此感到一絲愛意。對我來說，所謂的可愛，可能與普通的美少女可愛有所不同，這是關於我是否能愛上牠們的問題。而我能愛的範圍似乎與普通人不同。因此，即使在動畫中發生奇怪的事情，我可能也會愛著這些瞬間。聽起來這一切都是「男孩遇見女孩」的故事。

That’s what I mean. So, I think that monster stories in the world are stories of encounters that cannot be fulfilled. And I think that Honda’s works have taken it to the extreme and become stories of double suicides. Like “The First Gas Human”. That’s exactly the feeling I get, but rather than being repulsed by it, I’m actually drawn to it. In other words, these two people are absolutely impossible, you know? For example, there aren’t many people who can fall in love with birds. Well, I think there are plenty of people who find them cute, but for me, it’s a bit incompatible with my existence or phenomenon. I think maybe my fetish is strange, but I feel a little bit of love towards it. My idea of cute is probably different from just finding normal pretty girls cute, it’s about whether I can love them or not. And it seems like the extent to which I can love is different from ordinary people. So, even if strange things happen in anime, there might be a part of me that loves capturing those moments. It’s like listening to all those “boy meets girl” stories.

原田

在擁有這種感覺的同時，作為動畫師，我認為有些故事是角色和情境最重要的。當面對這些裂痕或瞬間時，角色會如何行動，或者「我想讓他們這樣動」的感覺，這種感覺是怎樣的呢？

While having that feeling, now, as an animator, I think there are stories where characters and situations are the most important. When encountering cracks or moments like that, I wonder how the characters move or think, like “I want them to move like this.” It’s a kind of sensation, I guess?

しの

這真的就是這樣。最近我感覺到，我可能更想描繪的不是故事，而是那些瞬間。不是長時間的情感變化，而是像猶豫的瞬間，或者是好壞之間的掙扎，甚至是飛翔的瞬間。我想要抓住的是在相對短暫的時間感覺中的某些東西，這種癖好讓我創作動畫。因此，我可能會選擇動畫。

It’s really like that, isn’t it? Maybe I’m not interested in the story itself, but rather in capturing those moments. That’s something I’ve been feeling lately. It’s not about long-lasting emotional changes, but rather about those moments of hesitation, whether something is good or bad, or even when things are in flux. I want to grasp something within relatively short periods of time, like flying. There’s this fetish of wanting to capture something within that short sense of time, and that’s why I make anime. So maybe that’s why I choose anime.

原田

我對海外的情況並不特別了解，但在北美等地，動畫師=演員的論點似乎存在。聽到你剛才的話，我覺得しの想要讓角色動起來的部分，似乎非常接近演員的感覺。

I’m not particularly knowledgeable about foreign countries, but in places like North America, there’s this idea that animators are like actors, you know? And listening to the current discussion, it seems like you have a strong desire to bring Shinohara-san’s character to life, which feels very actor-like or closer to that kind of sensibility.

しの

是的，特別是在日本，動畫師的分工已經相當明顯了。例如，有些人非常擅長特效，專注於特效的製作；有些人則專注於角色表演。雖然動作場面佔據了很大一部分，但為了讓動作場面突出，必須追求身體動作的美感和時機的恰到好處。日本的動畫師似乎非常重視這些技術方面，因此可能有很多這樣的動畫師。至於我，並不特別想要專精於這方面。

我更關心的是「這個人感覺如何？」例如，當水流動時，我會想這水想要如何流動；當風吹起時，我會想這風是什麼樣的風。這種感覺更像是演員，甚至在吹一陣風時，我也會想「這風想要傳達什麼樣的感覺？」是想撫摸主角，還是想讓他們受苦？我會想知道這兩者之間的差異。

Well, when it comes to Japanese animators, there is quite a bit of specialization going on, you know? For example, there are people who are really good at effects and only do effects, and there are people who only focus on character acting. Action is definitely a big part of it, but for action to stand out, it needs to pursue the beauty of body movements in that moment and the satisfaction of timing. Japanese animators seem to place quite a bit of emphasis on these technical aspects, so maybe there are quite a few animators who are like that. Personally, I don’t have much of a desire to specialize in that area.

I’m more interested in thinking about “what is this person feeling?” For example, when water flows, I wonder how this water wants to flow, or when the wind blows, what kind of wind is it? It’s more about that kind of feeling. So it’s more like being an actor, even for just blowing a breeze, I think, “What kind of feeling does this wind want to convey?” Is it to caress the protagonist or to make them suffer? I wonder which it is.

原田

我認為自主性是好的，但在商業環境中，通常會有一定的導向。那麼在這方面的情況是怎樣的呢？

I think autonomy is generally a good thing, but in the commercial field, there is often a certain direction in terms of production. Can you please explain how things work in that regard?

しの

是的，這確實是如此。因此，完全成為幕後工作人員也是可以的。如果我能得到適當的解釋並且能夠理解，我基本上可以按照指示去做。然而，正如我之前提到的，我無法畫出那些我無法理解其思考過程的東西，或者我無法同意的東西，或者我無法理解其結構的東西。

So, of course, if I talk to the director and they tell me, “This is the reason why we want it to be like this,” I can think, “Ah, I see,” and draw it that way. But if it’s unclear or vague, I end up not being able to write because I’m like, “Huh, what, I don’t get it,” and things like that. Well, more often than not, I feel like I’m completely focused on the directorial aspects while still working as an animator.

迫田

在你寫分鏡時，會在分鏡中寫下場景或鏡頭的意圖、意義或目的嗎？

When writing a storyboard, do you include the intentions, meanings, or purposes of the scenes or cuts in the storyboard?

しの

啊，是的。我會相當多地加入這些內容。像是註解，「這裡是某某的致敬」或「我想要這個場景的感覺」。大多數是電影，但有時我會用電影的名字或某位動畫師的名字來指定。這樣的附註很多，我覺得這樣讓人感到很抱歉，讓人每次都要查找。

Ah, I see. That’s quite a lot. It’s more like footnotes or something like “This is an homage to so-and-so” or “I want the feeling of a certain scene from this place.” It’s mostly about movies, but sometimes I specify with either the name of a movie or an individual animator. I apologize for having so many disclaimers like that, it must be a hassle to look them up every time.

迫田

這只是我的個人意見，但我認為有明確的結構和意圖在創作中是重要的。當有明確的意圖和像導演或領導者這樣強烈持有該意圖的人時，這會使項目更具一致性，並讓我感到項目安全地進行。因此，我認為在創作各種作品時，這種意圖是必要的。

This is just my opinion, but I think it’s important to have a clear structure and intention when creating something. When there is a clear intention and someone like a director or leader who carries that intention strongly, it brings coherence to the project and gives me a sense of security that the project is progressing safely. So, I believe it is necessary to have such intention in order to create various works, from short ones to long ones.

しの

是的。我覺得有這樣的人在身邊也不錯。

Well, I think it’s okay to have people like that around, you know.

迫田

確實可以有這樣的角色分工。

Certainly, such division of roles is possible, isn’t it?

原田

作為一種輔助線，舉例來說，在戲劇現場，通常會有一種強烈想要控制的劇作家，還有能夠完全按照他們的想法演繹角色的專業演員。傳統戲劇的形象往往更偏向於這一點。

As a kind of auxiliary line or, for example, on the set of a play, there is often a type of playwright who strongly wants to control something, like a professional actor who can perform the role exactly as they envision it. Well, the image of traditional theater is quite strong in that regard.

另一方面，還有一種方式是與在排練室中創建場景的演員一起演出，並在此過程中辨別場景的趣味。這就像是選擇和捨棄每一個即興表演或片段，這樣的創作方式也存在。我只在紀錄片中見過，但在迪士尼或皮克斯等地方創建和丟棄分鏡的方式有點接近這種方式。

On the other hand, there is also a way of creating a play by performing together with the actors who are building the scene in the rehearsal room, while discerning the interesting aspects of the scene. It’s like selecting and discarding each study or episode, a kind of approach like that. I’ve only seen it in documentaries or something, but it’s somewhat similar to creating and discarding storyboards, like what they do in Disney or Pixar.

因此，在日本，似乎有一種傾向是試圖構建一個敘事，這種建構型的劇作家風格。從しの的角度來看，如果有創建這種即興表演和進行選擇的時間，那麼可能會產生非常有趣的東西。然而，在日常工作中，可能有很多事情無法做到那種程度，雖然短帶長襷，但可能會有一些不匹配的情況，我想像著這樣的情況。

So, in Japan, there seems to be a tendency to try to construct a narrative, a kind of construction-oriented playwright style. From Shino-san’s perspective, it seems that if there were terms for creating such studies and making selections, it could lead to very interesting things. However, in everyday work, there may be many things that cannot be done to that extent, and although it’s a short obi, the sash is long, there may be some mismatched aspects, I imagine.

しの

啊，對呢。這真的可能是這樣。或許這就是所謂的動力的空轉？可能會有一種「我並不期望你做到那麼多」的感覺。

Hmm, I see. What should I say? Is it like a spinning of motivation? Maybe there’s a bit of a feeling like “I don’t expect that much from you.” I’m not sure though.

原田

有時候會有「照你所說去做」的情況，或者是完全的委託，這方面我不太清楚。

As the user’s text is in Japanese, I will translate it into English.

It seems like there’s a conversation about doing things as instructed or delegating tasks. Well, I’m not really sure about that.

しの

當然，做角色設計的時候，會有一些自己的想法，這樣會讓作品變得有趣。

Well, when it comes to doing character design, there are definitely elements of my own ideas that make it interesting.

迫田

謝謝你。我們的討論越來越熱烈，但我想在這裡播放一首歌曲。

Thank you very much. We are getting excited, but for now, I would like to play a song here.

しの

這部作品的故事雖然混亂，但情感的流動和電影的開場方式，加上我來自千葉縣的背景，讓我深深地迷上了《青春的殺人者》這部電影。這是導演至今只拍過兩部電影中的一部，我想播放這部電影的主題曲，來自Godiego的歌曲。

這首歌叫做「將回憶託付給你」。謝謝大家。

This work is a mess in terms of the story, but the flow of emotions and the way the movie starts, along with the fact that I am from Chiba Prefecture, all combined to make me absolutely hooked on a movie called “Youthful Murderer.” It’s one of the two films made by a director who has only made two films so far. I think I’ll play a little bit of the song by Godiego, which became the theme song for that movie.

The song is called “I’ll Entrust My Memories to You.” Thank you in advance.

在無聲的瞬間創造共鳴

在無聲的瞬間創造共鳴

迫田

しの提到的「我認為怪獸是男孩遇見女孩的故事」這句話有些簡化，因此需要解釋背景。しの所創作的作品和角色設計，從「愛的範圍」這個角度來看，似乎能夠理解，或許在しの的眼中，對於愛的範圍與一般人有所不同，這點非常有趣。

The statement from Shino-san, “I consider monsters as Boy Meets Girl,” seems to be quite condensed, so it seems necessary to provide context. It was interesting how Shino-san’s portrayal and character design align with the concept of “love” and how Shino-san’s perspective on the scope of love might be slightly different.

就我而言，我非常喜歡關於怪獸的「被排斥者的隱喻」或「障礙/災害的隱喻」的討論。如果有機會，我希望能進一步探討這個話題。此外，當寫分鏡或創作原畫時，しの提到對於不理解的意圖或結構的作品感到困難，這引發了原田對於戲劇和即興表演的討論，從中我解讀到，或許可以從瀑布式的創作方式轉向更靈活的方式，在現場進行各種嘗試，這樣的方式可能會很有趣。

Personally, I quite enjoyed the discussion of the metaphor of the “outcast” or the “metaphor of obstacles/disasters” in relation to the monsters. I hope to explore this further somewhere in the future. Also, when writing the script or creating the original artwork, there was a discussion about how Shino-san finds it challenging to work with things that are not understood or structures that are not comprehensible. This led to a conversation about theater and etudes initiated by Harada-san, and from there, it was interpreted that adopting a more agile approach, where various things are done on the spot, instead of a waterfall-like approach, might be interesting.

總之，這次的討論中提到，しの希望能在短暫的時間內通過身體動作表達心靈的變化。我認為每位創作者都會關注自己如何展現自己，許多人對於在社交媒體上的行為也很感興趣。因此，我想詢問しの對於自我品牌的看法，以及是否有關注或進行的相關行動。

So, in summary, it was mentioned that Shino-san wants to express the movements of the heart during this short period through physical movements in the film. I think each creator is conscious of how they present themselves and many are interested in their behavior on social media. Therefore, I would like to ask how Shino-san perceives their own branding and if there are any concerns or actions related to it.

しの

我並沒有很多朋友，所以在創作時經常獨自一人。這算是我分享自己想法的場合吧？這樣的機會不多。當然，我也在進行一些創作，這也是品牌的一部分。基本上，正如我之前所說，我的喜好相當偏頗，或者說只要不是主流的我都能接受。我會誠實地面對自己的喜好，通常會有一些小眾的存在。在過去五年裡，我一直在寫關於怪獸或非人類的作品。我確實喜歡這些，並且擅長這些，但我從未想過自己會寫這麼多非人類的東西。這讓我意識到，持續做自己擅長和喜愛的事情是相當重要的。因此，我想未來的方向可能不會改變，因為我一直在忠實地創作。

Well, I don’t have many friends, so when I create things, I often end up doing it alone. Is this like a place for me to share my thoughts? I don’t have many opportunities like that. Of course, I also do things like branding. It feels like that is also a part of it. But basically, as I mentioned earlier, my preferences are quite biased, or rather, I’m okay with anything as long as it’s not mainstream. I tend to be honest with my preferences, and there are generally niche interests, you know? For the past five years or so, I’ve been writing about monsters and things that are not human. I definitely enjoy that and it’s something I’m good at. I never thought I would end up writing only about things that are not human. It made me realize that it’s important to continue doing what you’re good at and what you love. So, I think I probably won’t deviate from that direction in the future. I’ve been faithfully creating things in a somewhat fetishistic manner.

迫田

誠實地宣告自己的癖好，並不斷產出符合這種癖好的作品，自然會促進自我品牌的發展，並吸引自己喜愛的工作。

To honestly declare your fetish and continuously produce output that aligns with that fetish, it will naturally lead to the development of your personal branding and the emergence of work that you love.

しの

其實，世界上有各種各樣的人，喜好也各不相同。當然，喜歡我創作的作品的人，或者喜歡這個類型的人也一定有很多。因此，我覺得首先要把作品傳遞給這些人。如果我無法在自己的專業領域中取得成功，那麼之後會留下什麼呢？我並不擅長一擊致勝的創意。當然，像在推特上引起轟動，或創作能讓大家共鳴的作品，確實能獲得那一瞬間的共鳴，但我想說的是，我希望人們能愛上我創造的角色。因為我對這些角色有著深厚的感情，所以我希望他們能理解這種感覺。為了達到這一點，我只能誠實地面對自己的癖好。因此，我把這看作是對這些角色的宣傳活動，並在網上進行活動，這或許是我所做的事情的一部分。

Well, in the end, there are all sorts of people in the world, each with their own preferences. Of course, there are probably plenty of people who like what I write or who enjoy this genre, so maybe it’s important to start by reaching out to those people. I can’t help but wonder what will be left if I can’t succeed in my area of expertise. I’m not particularly skilled at coming up with one-hit-wonder ideas. Of course, creating something that becomes a buzz on Twitter or that everyone can relate to might easily garner that momentary sense of connection, but to put it a certain way, I want people to fall in love with the characters I create. I want them to understand the feeling I have for those characters. In order to do that, I have no choice but to be honest about my fetishes. So, I think of it as diligently spreading the word about those characters, engaging in online activities, or at least having a certain aspect of that.

迫田

我覺得這是一種有趣的表達方式。簡而言之，如果你真的有一個根植於癖好的角色或情境，並以真正熱愛的心情去宣傳它，那麼這份愛就會觸動那些真正理解它的人。當然，這也需要堅持不懈。

I thought I received an interesting way of expression. Well, in short, if you really have a character or a situation that is deeply rooted in your fetish, and you spread the love with the intention of truly loving it, it will resonate with those who truly understand that love. Well, there are also places where you stubbornly persist, right?

しの

是的，這有點宅文化的感覺。

Oh, I see. That’s a bit geeky, isn’t it?

迫田

我認為有各種媒體，但作為全球社交網絡的推特，可能是一種有效的策略。首先，面向全球會增加用戶基數，因此無論多麼癖好或小眾，基數都會很大。

I think there are various types of media, but I believe that Twitter, being a global social networking service, could be an effective tactic. As a prerequisite, aiming globally would increase the user base, so no matter how much it caters to fetishes or niches, the user base would still be large.

しの

此外，無論是動物還是機器人，甚至其他任何東西，在日本可能不會有很多人感興趣，但在美國等地，特別是在兒童節目中，經常會將所有角色擬人化為動物，這種情況相當普遍。數碼寶貝在國外似乎比在日本更受歡迎。其實，我並不一定要受到日本人的喜愛。因此，即使沒有「動畫」這個詞，或者沒有「視覺」這個詞，我們仍然可以創作視覺作品。因此，我認為可以不依賴語言，僅僅依靠角色和動作來進行競爭。畢竟，湯姆與傑瑞就沒有對話。

Also, for example, whether it’s animals or robots or anything else, in Japan, there may not be many people who are really interested in them. But in countries like America, for example, in children’s shows, they often anthropomorphize everything into animals, and there are quite a lot of them. Even Digimon seemed to be more popular overseas than in Japan. Well, it doesn’t have to be popular only among Japanese people, I guess. So even without the word “animation,” or even without the word “visual,” you can still create visuals, you know. So I thought it might be possible to compete with just characters and movements, without words, and I kind of have that idea. After all, Tom and Jerry don’t have any dialogue.

迫田

我同意。回到社交媒體時代的品牌建設，這可能有些自我中心，但我認為視覺表達在全球社交媒體上是一種最強的溝通方式。此外，當しの提到希望在短暫的時間內表達心靈的變化時，我覺得這與當前的時代有些契合。在推特上沒有聲音，用戶只會瞬間掃視內容。在那無聲的瞬間中，抓住人心並培養共鳴，動畫作為視覺表達可能非常適合，這或許能提供一些啟示。

I agree. Returning to the discussion of branding in the age of social media, it may seem self-centered, but I believe that visual expression is probably the most powerful means of communication when it comes to revealing oneself on global social media platforms. Also, what struck me is when Shino-san mentioned wanting to express the movements of the heart in a short time frame. It seems oddly fitting for the current era. On Twitter, there is no sound and users only glance at content for a moment. In that fleeting moment without sound, capturing people’s hearts and cultivating empathy, I think anime as a visual expression may be extremely suitable. It might provide some hints.

しの

是的。其實我對互聯網並沒有太多投入，所以有點放任自流。

Well, that’s right. I haven’t been committing to the internet at all, so I’ve kind of left it alone for a bit.

迫田

我再次認識到，推特不發聲或不說話。相比之下，像抖音這樣的平台則更注重聲音、對話和動作。

I thought so again. Twitter doesn’t make any sound or talk, right? TikTok and those kinds of platforms, on the other hand, are more about making sounds, talking, and moving.

しの

是的，抖音能夠給出完整的結局，並且非常注重短暫時間內的節奏感。即使是小視頻，他們也會進行精細的編輯，確保每一幀都不會多餘。這方面的專家相當多。當需要在短時間內傳達某些內容時，我真的覺得他們的才能非常驚人。

Yes, that’s right. They can give it a proper ending, and they really focus on the excitement of those short intervals. Even in small videos, they do amazing editing, cutting it precisely to make it feel light even if there are a few extra frames. There are quite a few specialists in that area, aren’t there? When it comes to conveying something in a short time like in commercials, I really think their talent is incredible.

迫田

確實如此，他們在每一幀上都會投射出自己的堅持。在這次的討論中，我感覺到しの的堅持和表達方式，可能對於社交媒體規劃也會有幫助。此外，我也想聽聽你對未來的願景，或者有什麼想做的事情嗎？即使是模糊的想法也可以。

Yeah, that’s right. We really focus on projecting our obsession with each frame. Among the various things I’ve heard, I feel like it connects to the idea of your obsession and projection, which could be a useful approach even in SNS planning. Also, if it’s possible, I would like to hear about your future vision or something like that. Well, how about it? Do you have any vague thoughts about things you would like to do in the future?

しの

未來嗎？我希望能在商業領域中至少能做一部分鏡，這是一個相對可達的目標。當然，如果我認真起來，能夠創作出一定水準的畫面，這樣的話，我也想嘗試創作有對話的作品。當然，我也希望能做導演或創作原創角色設計的工作，但我並不特別在意職位。只要我能夠負責的範圍足夠廣，那就足夠了。因此，我想我會逐漸擴大自己能接觸的範圍。

In the future, huh? For now, I’d like to take on at least one storyboard in the commercial industry. It’s a reachable goal, I suppose. Well, if I get serious, I can create a decent amount of frames for things like original artwork, so I’m starting to feel like trying to make something with dialogue would be nice. Of course, I definitely want to do work in the direction of being a director or creating original character designs, but I’m not really fixated on having those kinds of positions. As long as I can have a wide range of responsibilities that I can handle, well, that’s good enough for me. Well, I guess I’ll gradually expand the range of things I can handle.