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整體目錄

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#02開始了

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了解用語言表達意圖和意義的重要性

Recognize the importance of expressing intentions and meanings in words.

『アオイホノオ』 島本和彦 | ゲッサンWEB

原田

雖然我有很多想隨意聊的話題，但因為談話變得有趣，所以我稍微保持沉默，不想打斷。不過，我也非常喜歡諸星大二郎，真的超級喜歡，但我覺得我的看法有點不同。畢竟他是我在高中時期改變看法的作家之一。千葉的風土與那隻鳥的故事之間的聯繫讓我感到非常密切，聽起來非常有趣。

我來自關西地區，雖然不是盆地，但我在一個相對狹小的地方長大，這是一個有坡度的城鎮。雖然開放且沒有牆，但實際上非常狹窄。我對廣闊的土地有一種憧憬和恐懼，來到東京後，我真的感受到北關東和千葉的那種土地擴展的感覺，作為一種異文化。因此，我對しの在這樣的地方成長的感受感到非常好奇。

進入大學的感覺就像是在尋找新的環境和相遇。看起來你有這樣的環境。也許鄉村就是鄉村，但我聽到的故事中有關於競爭和成長的同伴，還有各種各樣的人。你知道的，就像漫畫《アオイホノオ》，那是當時東京藝術大學的學生所畫的漫畫。

While I have various things I want to casually talk about, because the conversation is getting interesting, I’ll remain silent for a moment. I also really love Moroboshi Daijiro, like, I absolutely love him, but I guess my perspective is a bit different. He’s definitely an author who has become a catalyst for changing the way I view things, especially during my high school years. The connection between the Chiba atmosphere and the episode with the bird feels really profound, and I found it very intriguing.

So, I’m from the Kansai region. And I grew up in a relatively small area, not a basin or anything, but a town with slopes. It’s open and there are no walls at all, but it’s actually very narrow. I have a sort of longing and fear for vast lands, even though I grew up in such a small place. Coming to Tokyo, I really felt the sense of North Kanto and Chiba, that feeling of the land expanding immensely, as a different culture. So, I was very interested in hearing about SHINO-san’s perspective, growing up in such a place.

Going to university is like seeking encounters or a new environment. And it seems like you had such an environment. Well, maybe rural areas are just rural, but I was listening to stories about having peers to compete and grow with, and the multitude of individuals that exist. You know, like the manga “Aoi Honoo,” which portrays the manga drawn by the students of the Tokyo University of the Arts during that time.

しの

島本さん的作品。

Shimamoto wrote.

原田

是啊，演員們的陣容太強大了，但我想那時候大學同學和老師之間的關係一定有很多。我想像那裡一定有一個非常幸福的環境。因此，我希望能夠深入了解。

Yeah, that’s right. It feels like there were too many talented actors, but there seemed to be various relationships between my university friends and professors during that time. While listening, I imagined that there was a really happy environment there. So, I would be happy if I could continue to ask more in-depth questions.

迫田

謝謝你。當談到諸星大二郎和島本的作品時，深入探討作品和作家的話題會無限延伸，這樣的對話也很有趣，但我想先聽聽你在大學時期的相遇和挑戰。

No, thank you very much. When hearing about Mr. Dairo Moroboshi and Mr. Shimamoto, I thought it would be interesting to delve into discussions about their works and other authors, and it would be endless fun to continue the conversation in that direction. However, for now, I would like to hear about your experiences during your university days, such as encounters and challenges.

基本上，似乎你有一個改變視角的重大經歷，甚至現在你仍在尋求那種刺激。我推測你也想創作出能夠提供這種刺激的作品。我個人認為這種基礎是在你的大學時期建立的，你在那裡挑戰自己。所以，關於你在大學時期的挑戰，有沒有什麼值得回憶的事情呢？

Well, thank you very much. I think you had a significant experience that changed your perspective, and even now, you continue to seek that stimulation. I assume you also want to create works that can provide such stimulation. I personally interpret that the foundation for this was built during your university days, where you challenged yourself. So, are there any memorable things that you can recall from your university days in terms of challenges?

しの

是的。在大學裡當然有各種各樣的人，努力的人和不那麼努力的人都有，這裡的差異很大。老實說，我覺得我在大學生活中並沒有特別努力，但我每年大約會做一部自主製作的作品。當然，有時是和幾個人一起合作，有時是自己做。你知道，我只是想試試看，雖然我並沒有太多的技術。

So, naturally, I didn’t know what to do and didn’t want to do something basic or generic. It’s like I didn’t want to follow the crowd. I remember starting to do everything myself and creating a mess, saying things like “I’ll make everything on my own.” At that time, my friends somehow all ended up in the hand-drawn animation industry, and I became friends with people who didn’t go to college for the purpose of working in game companies or similar places. It’s kind of like we’re all in the same boat, you know.

迫田

在你進入大學之前，你並沒有特別積極地手繪動畫嗎？

Until Shino-san entered university, did you not really draw animations by hand or anything like that?

しの

其實沒有。比如說，有像EasyTone這樣的軟體可以用來進行簡單的動畫，我偶爾會用這些軟體創作。但老實說，在那之前我對作畫並不太了解。進入大學後，我在動畫迷的朋友和電影迷的教授的指導下，逐漸學習。

I didn’t do much of that. For example, there were software programs like EasyTone that could be used to animate with just paint-like features, and I would occasionally create things with those. But to be honest, I wasn’t really knowledgeable about animation until then. After entering university, I gradually learned with guidance from friends who were animation enthusiasts and professors who were film enthusiasts, and so on.

迫田

我想那些人帶來的刺激是相當大的。

Perhaps what those people brought was quite a big stimulus, I think.

しの

例如，當一起創作時，我意識到「如果不這樣說就無法傳達」，或者在決定顏色時，「這裡應該用更亮的顏色」，這在我心中是不可接受的。當被問到「為什麼？」時，我會想「我不知道為什麼？」但如果我能說「因為這是高飽和度的顏色，亮度高的顏色在畫面上會非常突出，所以這是應該突出的物品，所以我們要讓它更亮」，那就有了理由。創作某物需要理由、意圖，或者需要某種參考，這讓我重新認識了。

我想進入商業動畫也是因為這個原因。如果我有能力僅憑直覺就能做到，那我可能會從事藝術動畫或成為獨立作家。但我並不是這樣的人，我在創作時需要理由。因此，我來到了商業動畫的領域。

For example, when it comes to working together, I realized that saying “It won’t be understood unless you say it like this” or when deciding on a color, saying “Let’s go with a brighter color here” is not acceptable in my mind. When asked “Why?” I thought, “I wonder why?” But then, for example, if it’s a highly saturated color or a high brightness color, it will definitely stand out on the screen, so if I can say “Let’s make it brighter because this item should stand out,” it becomes a reason. You need a reason when creating something, you need intention, or you need some kind of reference. It made me realize that.

Maybe going into commercial animation is probably because of that. If I had the talent to do it with just my sense and didn’t need that, I would probably be doing art animation or be an independent artist. But I think I’m not like that. I’m the type that needs a reason when creating something. That’s why I came into commercial animation.

迫田

在與各種創作者的對話中，我發現每個人都理解需要理由，但能否將理由語言化的程度似乎影響著他們所進入的行業和職位。在當今社會，能夠將理由語言化並清晰表達的人，往往能夠晉升到指導層，並且更容易發揮作用。

我認為這不僅僅是關於專業學校或大學的問題，可能在東京造形大學的同一年代的學生中，他們同時重視技術、能力、理論以及將這些語言化的溝通能力。現在，しの能夠用語言表達的形式也讓我理解了這一點。順便問一下，這一年你創作了一部自主製作的作品，那麼在校期間你大約創作了四部長度相當的影片嗎？

What I’ve come to realize while interviewing various creators is that everyone understands the need for reasons behind things. However, the extent to which these reasons can be articulated seems to affect the industry’s progress and one’s position within it. In today’s society, individuals who can articulate their reasons and give clear meaning to them through words often rise to the level of a director or find it easier to thrive.

I think it’s not about technical schools or universities, but probably individuals from the same generation who attended Tokyo Zokei University. They were people who valued both technical skills, practical experience, and the ability to communicate and articulate their ideas. I now understand why Shino-san has been able to express herself in words, and it makes sense to me. By the way, does it mean that within this year, she has made one self-produced film, so during her time at the university, she made about four substantial-length videos?

しの

是的，當然也有一些不太長的作品。有些作品大約只有一分半，還有一些是小組製作的。不過，我想我在課題之外也會不斷創作。當然，當時的作品可能沒有現在這麼重視故事性。

Well, yeah. There are also some that are not very long. There are also ones that take about a minute and a half, and there are also group projects, but well, I guess I was working on them little by little, separate from the assignments. But at that time, there were probably more works that didn’t prioritize storytelling like now.

像音樂視頻，讓可愛的角色動起來。就這樣的感覺，先隨便做點什麼。這不僅適用於大學的其他人，也適用於同齡人，當然也有一些人只是隨著自己的喜好創作，而不去思考「這必須這樣」。我想在那個時候，沒有機會去思考「這是可愛的」或「這是有趣的」，所以我覺得那樣也不錯。但現在回想起來，心裡也會想「再成熟一點吧」，這也是一部分。

Well, yeah. There are also some that are not very long. There are also ones that take about a minute and a half, and there are also group projects, but well, I guess I was working on them little by little, separate from the assignments. But at that time, there were probably more works that didn’t prioritize storytelling like now.

所以，這一切都是為了表達那種感覺，當然我也會好好地做翅膀的動作，但那些翅膀的拍打必須看起來像是在尋求自由，對吧？或者在觀眾眼中必須是華麗的動作。這是從前一個場景計算出來的，但通過動作表達這一點實際上是相當困難的。而且我自己並沒有超凡的技巧，真的就是用熱情在創作動畫，因此在傳達這種熱情的過程中有一個耐心的階段。

Well, you know, for example, when I did “Mune no Kemuri” (Smoke in the Chest), it was essentially the same kind of reasoning as independent production, but the point is that at the climax, I want to give something that is the best in life, give the ultimate freedom, give the power to overcome the best of something, you know? So, in those moments, I really use my back muscles, but on the contrary, I try to tighten everything up as much as possible until then. Of course, the way I’m talking right now is also like that, but I think it’s necessary to have a good balance, flow, and conclusion to tell a story, right? And for me, there’s a strong fetishism towards things like flying in the sky or going somewhere completely different. Of course, there’s probably a lot of influence from Hayao Miyazaki as well. And there’s also a fetishism towards birds, of course.

所以，這種耐心的動作在生活和作品中都是如此。在耐心的同時創造強烈的對比，這成為角色突破的動力。這就像用「背動」的表達方式注入「你正在征服這個世界」的感覺，這可能也反映了しの對天空的渴望。這在某種意義上是相當一致的。我相信我聽到了しの所追求的東西，以及為什麼這不僅僅是關於精緻的作品，而是角色需要獨立存在的必要性。