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#02即将开始

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意识到将意图和意义用语言表达的重要性

认识到用语言表达意图和意义的重要性。

『アオイホノオ』 島本和彦 | ゲッサンWEB

原田

虽然我有很多想随意聊的话题，但因为谈话变得有趣，所以我稍微保持沉默。不过，我也非常喜欢诸星大二郎，简直是超级喜欢，但我觉得我的看法有点不同。确实，他是一个在我高中时期改变我看法的作家。千叶的风土与鸟的故事之间的联系让我感到非常密切，听起来非常有趣。

我来自关西地区，成长在一个相对狭小的地方，虽然不是盆地，但在一个坡道的城市。虽然开放，没有墙壁，但实际上非常狭窄。我对广阔的土地有一种憧憬和恐惧。来到东京后，我感受到北关东和千叶的感觉，那种土地广阔的感觉让我觉得是另一种文化。因此，我对しの在这样的地方成长的感受感到非常好奇。

进入大学的感觉就像是在寻找环境和遇见。似乎确实有这样的环境。虽然可能是乡村，但我听到的故事中有竞争和成长的伙伴，可能有各种各样的人。你知道的，就像漫画《アオイホノオ》，描绘了当时东京艺术大学的学生们创作的漫画。

While I have various things I want to casually talk about, because the conversation is getting interesting, I’ll remain silent for a moment. I also really love Moroboshi Daijiro, like, I absolutely love him, but I guess my perspective is a bit different. He’s definitely an author who has become a catalyst for changing the way I view things, especially during my high school years. The connection between the Chiba atmosphere and the episode with the bird feels really profound, and I found it very intriguing.

So, I’m from the Kansai region. And I grew up in a relatively small area, not a basin or anything, but a town with slopes. It’s open and there are no walls at all, but it’s actually very narrow. I have a sort of longing and fear for vast lands, even though I grew up in such a small place. Coming to Tokyo, I really felt the sense of North Kanto and Chiba, that feeling of the land expanding immensely, as a different culture. So, I was very interested in hearing about SHINO-san’s perspective, growing up in such a place.

Going to university is like seeking encounters or a new environment. And it seems like you had such an environment. Well, maybe rural areas are just rural, but I was listening to stories about having peers to compete and grow with, and the multitude of individuals that exist. You know, like the manga “Aoi Honoo,” which portrays the manga drawn by the students of the Tokyo University of the Arts during that time.

しの

岛本先生的。

Shimamoto wrote.

原田

是啊，演员们真是太齐全了，但我想那时候大学同学和老师之间的关系一定有很多。我想象着那是一个非常幸福的环境。因此，我希望能更深入地了解。

Yeah, that’s right. It feels like there were too many talented actors, but there seemed to be various relationships between my university friends and professors during that time. While listening, I imagined that there was a really happy environment there. So, I would be happy if I could continue to ask more in-depth questions.

迫田

谢谢你。提到诸星大二郎和岛本先生的故事，如果深入探讨作品和作家，话题会无穷无尽，这也很有趣，所以我想听听，但我想暂时控制一下，想听听大学时代的相遇和挑战。

No, thank you very much. When hearing about Mr. Dairo Moroboshi and Mr. Shimamoto, I thought it would be interesting to delve into discussions about their works and other authors, and it would be endless fun to continue the conversation in that direction. However, for now, I would like to hear about your experiences during your university days, such as encounters and challenges.

基本上，似乎你有一个改变你看法的重大经历，直到现在你仍在寻求这种刺激。我认为你也想创作出能提供这种刺激的作品。我个人认为，这种基础是在你的大学时代建立的，你在那时挑战自己。那么，在大学时代的挑战中，有什么值得回忆的事情吗？

Basically, it seems that you had a significant experience that changed your perspective, and even now, you continue to seek that stimulation. I assume you also want to create works that can provide such stimulation. I personally interpret that the foundation for this was built during your university days, where you challenged yourself. So, are there any memorable things that you can recall from your university days in terms of challenges?

しの

是的，大学里当然有各种各样的人，努力的人和不那么努力的人都有，差别很大。我觉得自己在大学生活中并没有那么努力，但至少每年都会制作一部自主作品。当然也有和几个人一起合作的项目，也有独自创作的经历。怎么说呢，我只是凭借动力去尝试，但技术并不成熟。

Well, yeah. There are various types of people in college, of course. Some are hardworking, while others are not so much. It really depends. Personally, I don’t feel like I worked that hard during my university life, but I did manage to create a few independent projects, at least one per year. Sometimes I worked with a group of people, and other times I worked alone. You know, I just had this drive to try things out and see what I could do, even though I didn’t have much technical skill.

所以，自然我不知道该怎么做，也不想做一些基础的东西。我不想随大流。我记得我开始尝试自己做所有事情，搞得一团糟，想着“我会自己做一切”。那时的朋友们不知为何都进入了手绘动画行业，而我却和那些不打算去游戏公司的人交了朋友。这种感觉就像我们都在同一个圈子里。

So, naturally, I didn’t know what to do and didn’t want to do something basic or generic. It’s like I didn’t want to follow the crowd. I remember starting to do everything myself and creating a mess, saying things like “I’ll make everything on my own.” At that time, my friends somehow all ended up in the hand-drawn animation industry, and I became friends with people who didn’t go to college for the purpose of working in game companies or similar places. It’s kind of like we’re all in the same boat, you know.

迫田

在你进入大学之前，しの并没有那么多手绘动画的经验吗？

Until Shino-san entered university, did you not really draw animations by hand or anything like that?

しの

其实没怎么做过。比如说，有像EasyTone这样的软件，可以用来简单地进行动画制作，我偶尔会用这些软件制作一些东西，但实际上在那之前我对作画并不太了解。进入大学后，我在动画迷的朋友和电影迷的教授的指导下，逐渐学习。

I didn’t do much of that. For example, there were software programs like EasyTone that could be used to animate with just paint-like features, and I would occasionally create things with those. But to be honest, I wasn’t really knowledgeable about animation until then. After entering university, I gradually learned with guidance from friends who were animation enthusiasts and professors who were film enthusiasts, and so on.

迫田

我想那些人带来的刺激是相当大的。

Perhaps what those people brought was quite a big stimulus, I think.

しの

例如，当一起创作时，“如果不这样说就无法传达”或者在决定颜色时，“这里要用更亮的颜色”这样的说法在我心中是不可接受的。当被问到“为什么”时，我会想“我不知道为什么”。但如果是高饱和度或高亮度的颜色，它在屏幕上肯定会突出，所以如果我能说“让它更亮，因为这个物品应该突出”，那就有了理由。创造事物时需要理由、意图，或者某种参考，这让我意识到这一点。

也许进入商业动画也是因为这个。如果我有能力仅凭感觉就能做到，那我可能会做艺术动画或成为独立艺术家。但我认为我不是那样的人。我是那种在创作时需要理由的人。这就是我进入商业动画的原因。

For example, when it comes to working together, I realized that saying “It won’t be understood unless you say it like this” or when deciding on a color, saying “Let’s go with a brighter color here” is not acceptable in my mind. When asked “Why?” I thought, “I wonder why?” But then, for example, if it’s a highly saturated color or a high brightness color, it will definitely stand out on the screen, so if I can say “Let’s make it brighter because this item should stand out,” it becomes a reason. You need a reason when creating something, you need intention, or you need some kind of reference. It made me realize that.

Maybe going into commercial animation is probably because of that. If I had the talent to do it with just my sense and didn’t need that, I would probably be doing art animation or be an independent artist. But I think I’m not like that. I’m the type that needs a reason when creating something. That’s why I came into commercial animation.

迫田

在与各种创作者交谈的过程中，我发现每个人都理解事物背后需要理由，但能否将这些理由语言化的程度似乎影响着行业的发展和个人在其中的位置。在当今社会，能够将理由语言化并明确表达其意义的人，往往能够晋升到导演层面，或者更容易获得成功。

我认为这不仅仅是关于专业学校或大学的问题，可能来自同一年代的东京造型大学的学生们，技术、能力，加上理论和将其语言化的沟通能力都是同时被重视的。我现在理解了为什么しの能够用语言表达自己。

顺便问一下，您提到每年制作一部自主作品，这是否意味着在大学期间您制作了大约四部较长的影片？

What I’ve come to realize while interviewing various creators is that everyone understands the need for reasons behind things. However, the extent to which these reasons can be articulated seems to affect the industry’s progress and one’s position within it. In today’s society, individuals who can articulate their reasons and give clear meaning to them through words often rise to the level of a director or find it easier to thrive.

I think it’s not about technical schools or universities, but probably individuals from the same generation who attended Tokyo Zokei University. They were people who valued both technical skills, practical experience, and the ability to communicate and articulate their ideas. I now understand why Shino-san has been able to express herself in words, and it makes sense to me. By the way, does it mean that within this year, she has made one self-produced film, so during her time at the university, she made about four substantial-length videos?

しの

是的，确实有一些不太长的作品。也有一些大约一分半的作品，还有一些是小组制作的。不过，我想我在课外也制作了一些作品。那时的作品可能没有现在那么注重叙事性。

Well, yeah. There are also some that are not very long. There are also ones that take about a minute and a half, and there are also group projects, but well, I guess I was working on them little by little, separate from the assignments. But at that time, there were probably more works that didn’t prioritize storytelling like now.

像音乐视频，制作可爱的角色动画。那种感觉就是先做点东西。虽然这不仅适用于大学里的其他人，也适用于同龄人，但确实有时候我们只是按照自己的喜好去创作，而不是试图传达某种东西，想着“必须这样”。除了那时，我可能没有机会去制作“这很可爱”或“这很有趣”的作品，所以我觉得那样也不错。但现在回想起来，我也有“再成熟一点”的感觉。

Well, yeah. There are also some that are not very long. There are also ones that take about a minute and a half, and there are also group projects, but well, I guess I was working on them little by little, separate from the assignments. But at that time, there were probably more works that didn’t prioritize storytelling like now.

所以，我想说的是，确实有很多耐心的时刻，比如“这里要忍耐一下”。我提到过我的自主制作是毕业作品的重制，对吧？在制作自主作品的过程中，我当然是在公司工作的。作为动画师进入公司后，在能够自由地作为原画师活动之前，确实有一个阶段是作为中间动画师的阶段。这个阶段需要通过描摹原画师的画作来填补空白。虽然说这并不算不具创造性，但我想尽快摆脱这种状态，因为这很无聊。我想每个人都在作品中融入了这种挫折感，当然，我的经历也融入了故事创作中。

Well, you know, for example, when I did “Mune no Kemuri” (Smoke in the Chest), it was essentially the same kind of reasoning as independent production, but the point is that at the climax, I want to give something that is the best in life, give the ultimate freedom, give the power to overcome the best of something, you know? So, in those moments, I really use my back muscles, but on the contrary, I try to tighten everything up as much as possible until then. Of course, the way I’m talking right now is also like that, but I think it’s necessary to have a good balance, flow, and conclusion to tell a story, right? And for me, there’s a strong fetishism towards things like flying in the sky or going somewhere completely different. Of course, there’s probably a lot of influence from Hayao Miyazaki as well. And there’s also a fetishism towards birds, of course.

What I mean is, in order to express that kind of thing, of course I also do things like flapping my wings properly, but those wing flaps have to look like they’re flying in search of freedom, don’t they? Or they have to be flashy and action-packed when you see them. I do a little calculation from the previous scene, but of course it’s quite difficult to express it through movement. And I don’t have such extraordinary skills myself, I really feel like I’m making anime with passion, so there’s a phase of patience in order to convey that passion.

我觉得我的人生也有点像这样。因此，有很多时刻需要忍耐，比如“这里要忍耐一下”。我提到过我的自主制作是毕业作品的重制，对吧？在制作自主作品的过程中，我当然是在公司工作的。作为动画师进入公司后，在能够自由地作为原画师活动之前，确实有一个阶段是作为中间动画师的阶段。这个阶段需要通过描摹原画师的画作来填补空白。虽然说这并不算不具创造性，但我想尽快摆脱这种状态，因为这很无聊。我想每个人都在作品中融入了这种挫折感，当然，我的经历也融入了故事创作中。

迫田

我认为耐心的动作不仅适用于生活，也适用于作品。通过在忍耐中创造强烈的对比，成为角色突破自我的动力。通过“背动”的表现，注入“你正在征服这个世界”的感觉，这可能也反映了しの对天空的向往。嗯，从这个角度来看，这种思路是相当一致的。我相信我听到了しの所追求的东西，以及为什么这不仅仅是关于完美作品，而是角色需要独立存在的必要性。

I think the concept of enduring moves applies not only to life but also to works. By creating a strong sense of contrast while enduring, it serves as a driving force for characters to break free and unleash their full potential. It’s like pouring in the feeling of “you’re taking over this world” by using the expression of “back motion,” which may also reflect Shino-san’s longing for the sky. Well, it’s quite consistent in that sense. I believe I’ve heard about what Shino-san is seeking and why it’s not just about well-made things, but about the necessity for characters to stand on their own.