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這篇文章可以在以下媒體以播客節目的形式收聽。
嘉賓、主持人
Guest, Personality
嘉賓：ミチノク峠
動畫創作者 / 遊戲美術設計師，主要從事動畫製作。目前正在製作和發布名為『ミチノク峠』的短篇動畫。
主持人：迫田祐樹
在通信公司和綜合廣告代理商工作後，創立了動畫企劃與製作公司，並從事音樂視頻和電影的製作。2021年移居京都，開始致力於促進京都的娛樂產業。最近也參與漫畫和音頻的娛樂領域，正在策劃和製作音頻劇和網路漫畫。此外，還擔任多家娛樂公司的製片人和顧問。
整體目錄
#01
・從かずのこ先生到ミチノク峠的過程
・志向於動畫影像的契機
・意識到3DCG的品質提升基於2D動畫的基礎
・迪士尼皮克斯的故事板吸引人
・日本人的性格
・重視畫面中的氛圍感
・從《兄弟熊》中獲得的靈感來源
・想製作日本版的《兄弟熊》
・用娛樂包裝困難的主題，使其更易於接受
・描繪生命的樂趣
・因為想創造自由多樣的作品而進入遊戲公司
・公司內部的能力、優勢、自由職業者的優勢等
・內心自我的存在
・畢業作品的重大失敗
#02
・從公司前輩那裡學到的事情
・不急躁、正念、不思考
・是否有不思考的技巧
・將不愉快的事情擱置一旁
・讓事情變得模糊
・受到Airy Me的音樂視頻的啟發
・創意發想的日常流程
・對題材進行徹底調查
・用藝術和創意的力量使難以理解的事物更易於傳達
#03
・參加眾籌的實感
・最初想靠自己的力量完成…
・無法優雅地完成的動畫
・人性和創作本質的所在是什麼？
・通過AI的到來，我們對作品的理解和需求變得更加明確
・文脈的重要性日益突出
・關於作品『ミチノク峠』
・想傳達東北的身份和東北的特質
・在『ミチノク峠』第10話中想傳達的內容
・生來就有的限制
#02開始了
不急躁、正念、不思考
Don’t rush, be mindful, don’t think.
迫田
是的。嗯，ミチノク先生在畢業作品時一直有想做的事情，但一直沒有機會，這讓他困擾了很久，甚至在他五年的公司員生活中也一直困擾著他。因此，他決定獨立，因為他必須無論如何都要做到。回頭看，這是一種失敗的經歷，但實際上，無論是在社會上工作還是以項目為單位做某事，都有很多成功和失敗，面對某些事情時必須克服它們。在這種情況下，ミチノク先生擁有的哲學或應對方法是什麼呢？
Yes. Um, there was always something that Michinoku-san wanted to do for your graduation project, but you never had the opportunity to do it. It bothered him for a long time, even during his five years as a company employee. So you decided to become independent because you had to do it no matter what. Well, looking back, it was a kind of experience of failure, but in reality, whether when working for a company in society or doing something on a project basis, there are many successes and failures, and you have to overcome them when facing something. What kind of philosophy or coping method does Michinoku-san have in such situations?
ミチノク峠
是的。困難並不僅限於創意行業，我在工作中遇到困難時，有位前輩告訴我，首先我想說兩件事，第一是「保持冷靜」。不急躁，這就是重點。當你急躁時，主觀上會覺得自己的頭腦在運作，但實際上並沒有。電視上有一個故事，某人因為沒有錢而被騙，結果失去了所有的錢。然後又被壞人騙，最終陷入負面漩渦，最後被騙的人無法做出冷靜的判斷。當我在電視上看到實際情況時，他們做出的判斷真的讓人難以置信。
因此，我認為被逼到絕境的人無法做出正確的判斷，所以不急躁是非常重要的。保持冷靜。當我在掙扎時，我看到了一些關於正念的東西，正念其實是冥想。冥想是一種讓心靈空靈、集中目標以改善思維的練習。這就像深呼吸一樣。當你深呼吸並冷靜下來時，焦慮會減輕一些，這樣就能更接近冷靜的判斷，所以我認為這是我需要重視的。
然後，第二點是「不思考」。這與剛才的說法相反，但「不思考」是指，當你受到侮辱或上司說了否定你人格的話時，回到家裡一個人思考的情況，這是很常見的。這樣做只是讓同樣的思維不斷循環，完全沒有生產性。我是那種容易被過去影響的人，總是認為如果我思考，就能找到改善的辦法，或者會變得更好，但我發現這樣做對我並沒有正面幫助。相反，當我試著不去思考時，意外地與剛才的話相呼應。我的心情變得冷靜，接近正確的判斷。
因此，「不思考」就是不去在意。不去在意，試著不去思考，停止在同樣的負面思維中打轉，這樣就能夠脫離，最終，我認為接近成功的關鍵是「不思考」和始終保持冷靜。實際上，我現在感到緊張，所以我覺得自己缺乏冷靜。我覺得我需要深呼吸一下。
Well, let me see. It’s not just limited to the creative industry, but when I was struggling with my job, there was something a senior at the company told me that I think is important to share. First, it’s about always staying calm. Don’t panic, that’s what it means. When you panic, your head feels like it’s working subjectively, but it’s not actually turning. There was a story on TV about someone who was deceived because they had no money and lost all of their money. They were then deceived by the bad person and ended up in a negative spiral, and in the end, the person who was deceived couldn’t make rational judgments. When I saw the actual situation on TV, the judgments they made were really unbelievable.
So, I think that people who are in a tight spot can’t make really good decisions, so it’s important to not panic and stay calm. And when I was struggling, I saw something called mindfulness, which is actually about meditation. Meditation is an exercise to empty your mind and focus on your goals to improve your thinking. It’s like taking a deep breath. When you take a deep breath and calm down, the anxiety is reduced a little and you can get closer to making rational judgments, so I think that’s important to do.
The second thing is “not thinking.” This is the opposite of what I just said, but it’s like, I don’t know, when you’re insulted or your boss says something harsh that negates your personality, it’s a common story to go home and worry alone in your room. But that’s just spinning around the same thoughts and it’s not productive at all. I’m the type of person who tends to drag things from the past and I used to think that if I thought about it, I would see a solution and it would get better, but there was a time when I thought it wasn’t really helping me in a positive way. On the contrary, when I tried to think positively and not worry about it, it was surprisingly similar to what I just said. I was able to be calm and my mind was stable, and I was getting closer to making the right judgments.
So, it’s about not caring about it by “not thinking.” Stop spinning around with the same negative thoughts, distance yourself from them, and ultimately, I think the key to success is “not thinking” and always staying calm. Well, I’m currently feeling nervous, so I feel like I’m lacking in calmness. I think I need to take a deep breath.
迫田
啊，那我們來深呼吸一下，然後笑一笑。「不急躁」「不思考」是面對困難時要放在心中的兩個前輩的建議。不過，我想深入了解一下「不思考」這一點，因為這真的很難，不是嗎？
Ah, let’s take a deep breath and then laugh a little. “Don’t panic” and “Don’t overthink” are the two senior colleagues’ advice that we should keep in mind when facing difficulties. However, I would like to ask more about this “Don’t overthink” part. Even so, it’s very difficult to “not overthink”, isn’t it?
ミチノク峠
嗯，對啊。你會想很多事情。
Well, yeah. It makes you think, doesn’t it?
迫田
是的。因為你會思考，所以這是很困難的。嗯，雖然有很多理論，但最終大腦會自動進入思考模式。這是無法停止的，這就是為什麼大家會感到困擾。我想知道，ミチノク先生是否有某種方法論來實現「不思考」，我想聽聽這方面的技巧。
Right. It’s tough because once you start thinking about it, your brain automatically goes that way, you know? There are various default mode networks and whatnot, but ultimately it’s what your brain naturally thinks about. That’s why I think everyone struggles with it, because they can’t stop it. In that sense, I feel like Mr. Michinoku has somehow been able to “not think” to a certain extent through some methodology, and I’m curious about what kind of techniques he uses.
ミチノク峠
是的，我自己也覺得還沒有完全做到。不過，當我無法不去思考時，我會告訴自己，不要去思考，試著想些正面的事情。還有，我會寫日記，或者在我的秘密推特帳號上發表一些「今天發生了不愉快的事情，唉」之類的內容。這樣做的話，實際上是把我的想法具體化了，用語言表達出來。因此，即使我有意識地想要不去思考，通過意識或言語的表達，無意中又會接近那些負面情緒。所以，我會努力不去這樣做，試著將不愉快的事情擱置一旁，或者蓋住它們。
Well, even I still feel like I haven’t quite figured it out yet. But when you can’t help but think negatively, you have to consciously try to think positively. For me, I often use a secret Twitter account as a replacement for a diary to vent things like “something bad happened, ugh”. This way, I am putting my thoughts into words. So even if I try not to think negatively, by being conscious of it or putting it into words, I unintentionally bring negative feelings closer to my subconscious. Therefore, it’s important to try not to do that and focus on ignoring negative thoughts by putting them aside or covering them up, so to speak.
例如，在一個和平的家庭中，可能有一段可怕的過去是禁忌或不被提及的。還有「言靈」的概念，認為語言有時會變成能量。這可以從科學或神經學的角度解釋。因此，不去意識到負面情緒並不將其說出來是很重要的。當你感到沮喪時，你會傾向於思考自己為什麼會這樣。結果，你會回想起不愉快的經歷。因此，即使是小事，專注於美好的事物也是很重要的，比如吃美味的食物或去美麗的地方。
此外，從輔導的角度來看，人們總是會思考過去和未來。例如，「過去發生了這樣的事情，我真糟糕」。另一方面，未來則是對未知的焦慮。但如果我們能專注於當下，而不去思考過去或未來，我們就能避免過度思考。沉浸在快樂的時刻，感激我們擁有的東西是很重要的。這樣做，我們逐漸滋養自己的心靈，能夠遠離負面情緒。因此，專注於快樂，沉浸在快樂的時刻是克服負面情緒的關鍵，這是我的經驗。
讓事情變得模糊
Ambiguity
迫田
您最初提到的「正念」這個詞，我認為這是一個非常根本的話題。最終，ミチノク先生在這個領域所談論的內容，實際上是相當難以理解的，不是嗎？
The word “mindfulness” was mentioned at the beginning, and I thought it was a story that was deeply rooted in that concept. In the end, the story that Mr. Michinoku talked about in this area is quite difficult to understand and accept, isn’t it?
ミチノク峠
啊，我剛剛想到了另一種表達方式。當我們試圖理解不愉快或壞事時，試圖讓自己接受或尋求解決方案，這會讓我們變得消極。因此，「模糊」這個詞經常被提到，與其將事情分為黑白，不如讓它變得模糊。這可能有點偏離主題，但在世界衝突中，往往將事情看作灰色地帶會更有利於維持和平。因此，我認為讓事情變得模糊是精神穩定的關鍵。不要急於下結論，真正的好處在哪裡，應該以一種中間的方式來看待。
Oh, I just came up with a way of expressing it. When it comes to unpleasant or bad things, trying to come to terms with them or trying to find closure can make you feel negative. That’s why people often say that the gray area is the best, rather than trying to see things in black and white. This may be a bit of a digression, but in conflicts in the world, it’s often better to see things in shades of gray to maintain peace. So, I think that seeing things in shades of gray is what leads to mental stability. Instead of making assumptions, it’s good to find the best part in a middle ground, rather than in black and white.
迫田
這真是一個很好的觀點。畢竟，在國際秩序和規則中，保持一些模糊的地帶是非常重要的。聯合國等機構也是如此，避免出現某個地方對某事擁有完全決策權的情況。
That’s a really good point. After all, it’s important to always have some gray areas in international order and rules. The UN and others do the same thing, avoiding a situation where one place has complete decision-making power over something.
ミチノク峠
是的。這樣的感覺有點難以理解。不過，這樣的方式卻能運作得很好。
Well, I see. It’s kind of confusing, but somehow it works.
迫田
是的。如果一切都被定義為0或100，那麼就會導致不合理的決策，這樣就會導致某些人或事物被排除。因此，保持模糊的狀態在國際事務中也是一種適用的思維方式。
Right. I think it’s a natural and internationally applicable approach to leave things ambiguous because if that something is already determined to be either 0 or 100, then rational decision-making will be made, which I think leads to the conclusion that someone or something will be dropped.
因此，當我事先詢問ミチノク先生如何處理與團隊成員之間的意見分歧時，他提到了這種模糊的邏輯。因此，我想談談這個話題。
So, when I asked Michinoku-san beforehand about how to deal with differences of opinion with team members, he talked about this gray area logic. So, I thought I’d like to talk about that as well.
ミチノク峠
嗯，對於團隊成員之間的意見分歧，保持模糊是非常重要的，雖然聽起來不太好，但我認為這是最好的方法。這與黑白和偏見的問題有關，因為偏見就是將事情分得太清楚。
Well, let me think. Regarding differences of opinion with team members, it’s important to leave things ambiguous just as they are, even though it may sound bad, and in reality, I think it’s the best way. It’s kind of like the discussion of black and white and prejudice, but I believe that prejudice is the same as clarifying things in black and white.
將所有事情都統一為同一件事會導致摩擦，因此在團隊中，重要的是即使存在不同的意見，也要共存。即使存在不同的意見，流動和共存是重要的。通過思考如何找到一個兼顧雙方的折衷方案，我認為團隊成員之間的意見分歧會開始得到解決。換句話說，這就像黑格爾的辯證法，a和b之間的爭論，仲裁者提出中間意見，並引導他們朝那個方向發展。因此，保持模糊的狀態對於各種事情都是相當重要的。
Summing up everything as the same thing can cause friction, so what’s important in a team is coexistence, even if there are different things. It’s important to flow and coexist even with different things. By thinking about finding a compromise that combines the best of both worlds, I think that the things that were stopped by differences of opinion with team members will start moving again. Well, to put it another way, there’s something called Hegelian dialectics that’s a bit complicated, where there are a and b, and they’re arguing about something, but then a mediator comes in and suggests a middle ground, and words that lead in that direction, so leaving things gray like that is probably important for various things.
迫田
我覺得這就像是站在一個在行業中工作了30年的境地一樣，哈哈。
No, I feel like I’m in a state where I’ve been in the industry for 30 years or something like that, you know, haha.
ミチノク峠
不不，我還是個新手。也許我父親經常和家人談論工作，聽到這些話，還有在推特上看到的公司問題，這些都讓我有了這樣的想法。
No, no, I’m just babbling. I think my father talks a lot about work to our family, but I just hear those conversations and other stuff like the issues with that company on Twitter, and I guess that’s what led me to think this way.
迫田
是的，為了在後半部分進行過渡，我想稍微轉換一下話題。經歷了這麼多失敗後，ミチノク先生現在得出的結論是「模糊是最好的」。在畢業作品時，您提到過一個失敗的經歷。相反，我想知道您心中真正欣賞的作品是什麼，能否介紹一下？
Well, let me see. I’d like to go back to the song arrangement to bridge the latter half here. As far as the connection point goes, after experiencing various failures, Michinoku-san has come to the conclusion that gray is the best. At the time of his graduation work, he talked about an episode where he failed and said, “I messed up here!” On the other hand, or rather, I don’t know if it’s the right way to put it, but it’s a form of introducing songs that Michinoku-san himself really liked and thought were good.
ミチノク峠
嗯，我在學生時代受到了一部作品的深刻啟發，這部作品是由多摩美術大學的久野遙子創作的。她在畢業作品中製作了一部動畫。這部動畫的標題和使用的音樂名稱相同，都是「Airy me」，而這首歌的藝術家是Cuushe。這部作品的優秀程度和美麗程度讓我感到驚訝。因此，我一直想創作這樣的作品，這部動畫的音樂成為了我想創作的動力。
受到Airy Me的音樂視頻啟發
迫田
您之前提到過這首歌的故事，能否再分享一下這首歌的背景？
I was talking a little bit earlier, but could you please tell me again the story behind this song?
ミチノク峠
我第一次看到這部作品是在大學三年級的時候，當時有一個在東京學習動畫的學生作品選拔放映會。那是一個名為ICAF的活動，我第一次看到這部作品。它的技術水平讓我驚訝，但更讓我驚訝的是它的美術風格。具體來說，這部作品完全沒有數位處理，僅用色鉛筆在黃色紙上進行最低限度的修飾，畫風是手繪的。內容設定在醫院，乍一看似乎描繪了一名護士和病人之間可愛的互動，但最終病人卻變成了一個可怕的怪物。這部作品既美麗又可愛，但同時也描繪了黑暗的一面，形成了對比。我在技術上和主題上都受到了深刻的啟發，並且非常渴望創作這樣的作品。因此，這部作品成為了我想創作的動力，甚至在成為社會人後的幾年裡，我還多次在YouTube上觀看這部動畫。
I first saw this work when I was a third-year university student, at a screening of selected works by students studying animation in Tokyo. It was an event called ICAF, and it was my first time seeing it. The technical excellence was amazing, but more than that, the beauty of the art was incredible. Specifically, the art style was all hand-drawn with colored pencils on yellow paper, without any digital processing, with just the bare minimum finish. The content was set in a hospital, and at first glance it seemed to depict a cute exchange between a nurse and a patient, but in the end, the patient turned into a grotesque monster. It was beautiful and cute, but at the same time, it depicted the dark side and contrasted with the grotesque elements. I was very impressed both technically and thematically, and I was filled with admiration and a desire to create this kind of work myself. I loved the work so much that even after I became a working adult, I watched that animation on YouTube many times for several years, almost as an obsession.
迫田
您之前提到的心靈滋養，當內心的聲音出現時，這不僅是控制它的意義，也是促進它的意義。看這部作品讓我不斷提醒自己，總有一天我也會創作出這樣的作品，這也是一種滋養。
That thing that was just talked about earlier, not about nutritional supplements for the heart, but when your inner voice comes out, it’s both about controlling it and promoting it. Watching this work might have been a way to keep providing that nutritional supplement, with the thought of making something like this someday and giving oneself encouragement.
ミチノク峠
是的，我想我從中獲得了力量。
Well, I guess I was getting energy from that nature.
迫田
聽到這些話，我認為創作者們聽到來自他人的這種聲音會感到非常高興。因此，我想ミチノク先生也在創作作品時，將這種感受傳達給未來的創作者。
When I listen to that, I think that the creators are really happy to hear such voices from others, so I think that maybe Michinoku-san is also creating the work to convey the same feeling to other people who will make things in the future.
ミチノク峠
是的，如果能做到這一點，那就太好了。
Well, if that could be done, it would be great, wouldn’t it?
迫田
是的，我認為您在面對困難時的態度在您的作品中得到了充分體現。我認為這是無意識中流露出來的。正念的思維在其中也體現得非常明顯。
That’s true, isn’t it? Well, I think that the attitude towards facing failures and difficulties, like the one from earlier, is really projected in Michinoku-san’s work. I think it’s unconsciously seeping through. I feel like mindfulness thinking is really present in it.
例如，在『ミチノク峠』的作品中，有一位名叫鬼的山伏，對吧？他有一個場景說「讓我們與山對話」，對吧？這明顯是正念和冥想，我認為這就是那種思維。我認為專注於當下意味著用全身感受眼前的一切並與之對話。因此，民俗學和土著文化往往追求這樣的東西，所以選擇這些主題是很自然的。我現在認為，無論是有意還是無意，ミチノク先生面對困難的態度也在他的作品中得到了體現。
Well, there are aspects of adding past difficulties as episodes to Michinoku Pass as a way of honoring those memories, and also parts that, as Sakoda-san mentioned, are unconsciously included. Both seem to be present.
創意發想的日常流程
What is a routine for coming up with creative ideas?
迫田
我聽到您提到的關於困難和失敗的「不急躁」「不思考」，我想了解一下在創作過程中，ミチノク先生是如何進行創意發想的，您有什麼樣的思考方式或日常流程？您認為創意是從哪裡來的，或者是如何被喚起的呢？
I asked about the idea generation process and routine that Mr. Michinoku has while doing creative work, after hearing about the idea of “not rushing” and “not thinking” when faced with difficulties and failures as an essence. However, what is the process of generating ideas and what kind of things lead to inspiration?
ミチノク峠
在我擔任公司員工的時候，我從事遊戲設計的工作，因此我正是將創意具體化的工作。因此，我學到的有兩個方面的方法：一是我在公司時期學到的方法，二是我自己在生活中體驗到的事情。當我在公司工作時，當我收到一個題目時，我會徹底調查這個題目，尋找最合適的答案。雖然我可能找不到100%完美的答案，但我會找到接近的答案。在找到答案後，我會加入自己的想法，看看如何能讓它更好，然後將其具體化。這就是我進行創意發想的過程。
One method of dropping an idea is to research it thoroughly, but it’s not the only way. Normally, I would see and hear various things in my daily life, as well as my own hobbies and preferences. I also pay attention to things and keep them in stock as part of my own repertoire. While it’s important to pay attention to things that interest you and expand your antennae, relying solely on your own interests will only lead to biased ideas for a given topic. Therefore, when making something, I research the topic thoroughly. I’ve been writing down my own ideas for a long time, but surprisingly, they often don’t work when it comes to actual production. They tend to be shallow.
在我擔任公司員工的時候，我從事遊戲設計的工作，因此我正是將創意具體化的工作。因此，我學到的有兩個方面的方法：一是我在公司時期學到的方法，二是我自己在生活中體驗到的事情。當我在公司工作時，當我收到一個題目時，我會徹底調查這個題目，尋找最合適的答案。雖然我可能找不到100%完美的答案，但我會找到接近的答案。在找到答案後，我會加入自己的想法，看看如何能讓它更好，然後將其具體化。這就是我進行創意發想的過程。
這些想法有時會成為靈感的起點，但通常在調查題目時獲得的信息更有用。因此，如果你試圖不依賴自己的經驗來發想創意，可能會陷入泥潭，永遠無法將想法具體化。因此，我始終保持警覺，努力學習更多的知識。即使你急於學習更多，這也不一定有幫助。重要的是要看看你不喜歡的東西，忍受這些作品，欣賞它們的優點，而不是浪費時間而不注意到它們的優點。因此，我認為在必要時，根據自己的興趣和喜好進行調查是很重要的。
迫田
因此，當您有一個題目時，您會進行大量調查，這些信息和事實成為了創意的精髓。然後，您將這些信息與自己的意見融合，將其升華為創意。
Regarding that, Michinoku-san has a stance of researching extensively during the process of coming up with ideas in response to a given topic. The information and facts gathered during the research serve as the essence, and by combining them with their own opinions, they elevate them into ideas.
ミチノク峠
我認為，通過選擇一個主題並專注於它，能夠使我們的思路更接近，從而產生更靈活的創意。如果沒有主題，我們可能會到達自己無法到達的地方。因此，確定主題或概念是非常重要的。
By choosing a theme and focusing on it during exercise, I think that the approach becomes closer, or rather more flexible ideas can be generated. When I think without a theme, I can reach parts that I couldn’t have reached myself. Therefore, deciding on a theme, or rather a concept, is important.
迫田
是的，這確實是如此。使用「主題」這個詞似乎更自由，但如果沒有這樣的框架，創意就會變得模糊，無法強化。因此，在一定程度上，設置這樣的限制是必要的，並收集大量的事實和信息來強化這個框架。正因為有了明確的主題，信息才會變得更清晰，這樣就更容易吸收以前無法接觸到的信息，並將自己的意見融合進去，最終產生出最佳的創意。
Well, this way of thinking is similar to that of a creative advertising agency’s creator, I thought while listening. In the end, Michinoku-san probably has a strong desire to make difficult-to-understand things understandable through the power of art and creativity, and that’s probably why he follows such a thought process when facing creative work. Making difficult-to-understand things understandable is the power of art, creativity, and design, so Michinoku-san has a great sense for it and a strong desire to do so, which is why works like “Michinoku Pass” are produced.
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