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嘉宾与主持人
Guest, Personality
嘉宾：ミチノク峠
动画创作者 / 游戏美术设计师，主要从事动画制作。目前正在制作并发布名为《ミチノク峠》的短篇动画。
主持人：迫田祐樹
曾在通信公司和综合广告代理商工作，后创办了动画企划与制作公司，制作音乐视频和电影。2021年移居京都，开始致力于推动京都的娱乐产业。最近还参与漫画和音频的娱乐领域，正在策划和制作音频剧和网络漫画。此外，还担任多家娱乐公司的制作人和顾问。
整体目录
#01
・从かずのこ到ミチノク峠
・追求动画影像的契机
・意识到3DCG的质量提升源于2D动画的基础
・迪士尼皮克斯的故事板令人着迷
・日本人的气质
・重视镜头中的氛围感
・从《兄弟熊》中获得的灵感来源
・想制作日本版《兄弟熊》
・用娱乐包装困难主题，使其更易接受
・描绘生命的乐趣
・因为想创造自由多样的东西而进入游戏公司
・公司内部的能力、优势、自由职业者的优劣等
・内心自我的存在
・毕业制作的重大失败
#02
・从公司前辈那里学到的事情
・不急躁、正念、不要思考
・是否有不思考的技巧
・将不愉快的事情搁置一旁
・让事情变得模糊
・受到Airy Me的MV的启发
・创意想法的发想例行公事
・对题目进行大量研究
・用艺术和创意的力量使难以理解的事物更易传达
#03
・进行众筹的真实感受
・起初想靠自己的力量完成…
・无法聪明地完成的动画
・人性和创作本质的所在是什么？
・通过AI的到来，我们更清楚地看到了我们在作品中所追求的东西
・文脉的重要性愈发突出
・关于作品《ミチノク峠》
・想传达东北的身份和东北的感觉
・在《ミチノク峠》第10集想传达的内容
・生来就有的限制
#02开始了
不急躁，正念，不思考
Don’t rush, be mindful, don’t think.
迫田
是的。嗯，ミチノク在毕业制作时一直想做的事情，但一直没有机会，这让我困扰了很久，甚至在五年的公司员工生活中也一直困扰着我。因此，我决定独立，因为我必须做到这一点。回头看，这种经历在某种程度上是失败的体验，但实际上，无论是在公司工作还是在项目中做某事，成功的体验很多，但也有失败的经历，面对这些时必须克服。那么，ミチノク在这种情况下有什么哲学或应对方法呢？
Yes. Um, there was always something that Michinoku-san wanted to do for your graduation project, but you never had the opportunity to do it. It bothered him for a long time, even during his five years as a company employee. So you decided to become independent because you had to do it no matter what. Well, looking back, it was a kind of experience of failure, but in reality, whether when working for a company in society or doing something on a project basis, there are many successes and failures, and you have to overcome them when facing something. What kind of philosophy or coping method does Michinoku-san have in such situations?
ミチノク峠
是的。困难并不是仅限于创意行业，我在工作中遇到困难时，公司前辈曾告诉我，首先我想说两件事。第一件是“始终保持冷静”。不急躁。虽然在急躁时，主观上感觉自己的头脑在运转，但实际上并没有。电视上有个故事，某人因为没有钱而被骗，结果失去了所有的钱。然后又被坏人欺骗，陷入负面循环，最终被骗的人无法做出冷静的判断。电视上看到的情况，真的做出令人难以置信的判断。
因此，我认为处于困境中的人无法做出真正好的判断，所以不急躁是非常重要的。保持冷静。然后，当我在烦恼时，我看到了一些关于正念的东西，正念其实是冥想。冥想是让心灵空灵，集中目标，改善思维的锻炼。深呼吸。当你深呼吸并冷静下来时，焦虑会稍微减轻，接近冷静的判断，所以我认为这很重要。
第二点是“不思考”。这与刚才说的相反，但当你受到侮辱或上司说了否定你人格的严厉话时，回家后一个人独自烦恼是很常见的事情。但这只是让相同的思维循环，没有任何生产性。我是那种容易被过去牵绊的人，认为如果思考就能找到改善的办法，或者会变得更好，但我发现这并没有给我带来积极的帮助。相反，当我试图不去思考时，意外地与刚才的说法相通。保持冷静，心态稳定，接近正确的判断。
因此，“不思考”就是不去在意。不去在意，努力不去思考，停止在同样的消极思维中打转，能够从中抽离出来，最终，我认为接近成功的秘诀就是“不思考”和始终保持冷静。实际上，我现在感到紧张，所以我觉得自己缺乏冷静。我想我需要深呼吸一下。
Well, let me see. It’s not just limited to the creative industry, but when I was struggling with my job, there was something a senior at the company told me that I think is important to share. First, it’s about always staying calm. Don’t panic, that’s what it means. When you panic, your head feels like it’s working subjectively, but it’s not actually turning. There was a story on TV about someone who was deceived because they had no money and lost all of their money. They were then deceived by the bad person and ended up in a negative spiral, and in the end, the person who was deceived couldn’t make rational judgments. When I saw the actual situation on TV, the judgments they made were really unbelievable.
So, I think that people who are in a tight spot can’t make really good decisions, so it’s important to not panic and stay calm. And when I was struggling, I saw something called mindfulness, which is actually about meditation. Meditation is an exercise to empty your mind and focus on your goals to improve your thinking. It’s like taking a deep breath. When you take a deep breath and calm down, the anxiety is reduced a little and you can get closer to making rational judgments, so I think that’s important to do.
The second thing is “not thinking.” This is the opposite of what I just said, but it’s like, I don’t know, when you’re insulted or your boss says something harsh that negates your personality, it’s a common story to go home and worry alone in your room. But that’s just spinning around the same thoughts and it’s not productive at all. I’m the type of person who tends to drag things from the past and I used to think that if I thought about it, I would see a solution and it would get better, but there was a time when I thought it wasn’t really helping me in a positive way. On the contrary, when I tried to think positively and not worry about it, it was surprisingly similar to what I just said. I was able to be calm and my mind was stable, and I was getting closer to making the right judgments.
So, it’s about not caring about it by “not thinking.” Stop spinning around with the same negative thoughts, distance yourself from them, and ultimately, I think the key to success is “not thinking” and always staying calm. Well, I’m currently feeling nervous, so I feel like I’m lacking in calmness. I think I need to take a deep breath.
迫田
啊，深呼吸一下吧，笑。“不急躁”“不思考”是面对困难时要牢记的两条建议。不过，我想深入了解一下这个“不思考”的部分，毕竟“不思考”是非常困难的，对吧？
Ah, let’s take a deep breath and then laugh a little. “Don’t panic” and “Don’t overthink” are the two senior colleagues’ advice that we should keep in mind when facing difficulties. However, I would like to ask more about this “Don’t overthink” part. Even so, it’s very difficult to “not overthink”, isn’t it?
ミチノク峠
嗯，是的。确实会思考。
Well, yeah. It makes you think, doesn’t it?
迫田
是的。因为会思考，所以确实很困难。虽然有默认模式网络等各种说法，但最终是大脑在自动思考。大家之所以烦恼，就是因为无法停止思考。在这方面，我觉得ミチノク在某种程度上通过某种方法论实现了“不思考”，我想听听他使用的技巧。
Right. It’s tough because once you start thinking about it, your brain automatically goes that way, you know? There are various default mode networks and whatnot, but ultimately it’s what your brain naturally thinks about. That’s why I think everyone struggles with it, because they can’t stop it. In that sense, I feel like Mr. Michinoku has somehow been able to “not think” to a certain extent through some methodology, and I’m curious about what kind of techniques he uses.
ミチノク峠
是的。我觉得我自己也还没有完全做到，但当我无法不去思考时，我会努力去想一些积极的事情。还有，我会写日记，或者在我的备用推特账号上发一些“今天发生了不愉快的事情，呜呜”的内容。这样做实际上是把我的想法用语言表达出来。因此，即使我有意识地想不去思考，表达出来的过程也会无意中让我接近那些消极情绪。所以，我努力不去做这些，尽量将不愉快的事情搁置一旁，或者用盖住的方式处理它们。
Well, even I still feel like I haven’t quite figured it out yet. But when you can’t help but think negatively, you have to consciously try to think positively. For me, I often use a secret Twitter account as a replacement for a diary to vent things like “something bad happened, ugh”. This way, I am putting my thoughts into words. So even if I try not to think negatively, by being conscious of it or putting it into words, I unintentionally bring negative feelings closer to my subconscious. Therefore, it’s important to try not to do that and focus on ignoring negative thoughts by putting them aside or covering them up, so to speak.
例如，在一个和平的家庭中，可能有一个可怕的过去是禁忌或不被提及的。还有“言灵”的概念，认为言语有时会变成能量。这可以从科学或神经科学的角度解释。因此，不去意识到消极的事情，不去说出来是很重要的。当你感到沮丧时，你往往会思考自己感到沮丧的原因。结果，你会回忆起消极的经历。因此，重要的是关注那些美好的事情，即使是小事，比如吃美味的食物或去美丽的地方。
Also, from a counseling perspective, people always think about the past and the future. For example, “this happened in the past, so I’m no good”. Conversely, we are often plagued by anxiety about the unknown future. But if we can concentrate on the present moment and not think about the past or the future, we can avoid overthinking. It’s important to immerse ourselves in happy moments and feel grateful for what we have. By doing this, we gradually nourish our hearts and minds and can distance ourselves from negative thoughts. So, focusing on being happy and soaking up happy moments is key to overcoming negative thoughts, in my experience.
模糊化
Ambiguity
迫田
您提到的“正念”一词，我觉得这确实是一个根深蒂固的主题。毕竟，ミチノク所说的这些内容，确实很难让人理解和接受，对吧？
The word “mindfulness” was mentioned at the beginning, and I thought it was a story that was deeply rooted in that concept. In the end, the story that Mr. Michinoku talked about in this area is quite difficult to understand and accept, isn’t it?
ミチノク峠
哦，我刚刚想到了一个表达方式。当试图理解不愉快或坏事时，试图达成共识或寻找解决方案会让人感到消极。因此，“模糊化”这个说法常常被提及，模糊化比起黑白分明更为重要。这可能有点偏离主题，但在世界冲突中，模糊化往往能更好地维护和平。因此，我认为模糊化是精神稳定的关键。不要做出绝对的判断，而是要找到中间的最佳部分。
Oh, I just came up with a way of expressing it. When it comes to unpleasant or bad things, trying to come to terms with them or trying to find closure can make you feel negative. That’s why people often say that the gray area is the best, rather than trying to see things in black and white. This may be a bit of a digression, but in conflicts in the world, it’s often better to see things in shades of gray to maintain peace. So, I think that seeing things in shades of gray is what leads to mental stability. Instead of making assumptions, it’s good to find the best part in a middle ground, rather than in black and white.
迫田
这是个很好的观点。毕竟，在国际秩序和规则中，保持一些模糊地带是非常重要的。联合国等组织也是如此，避免某个地方对某些事情拥有完全的决策权。
That’s a really good point. After all, it’s important to always have some gray areas in international order and rules. The UN and others do the same thing, avoiding a situation where one place has complete decision-making power over something.
ミチノク峠
是的。感觉有点难以理解，但这确实有效。
Well, I see. It’s kind of confusing, but somehow it works.
迫田
是的。如果一切都被绝对化，决策就会变得理性，最终会导致某些人被排除在外。因此，保持模糊化的状态在国际事务中也是一种适用的思维方式。
Right. I think it’s a natural and internationally applicable approach to leave things ambiguous because if that something is already determined to be either 0 or 100, then rational decision-making will be made, which I think leads to the conclusion that someone or something will be dropped.
因此，当我事先询问ミチノク关于如何处理团队成员之间的意见分歧时，他提到了模糊化的逻辑。我想谈谈这个话题。
So, when I asked Michinoku-san beforehand about how to deal with differences of opinion with team members, he talked about this gray area logic. So, I thought I’d like to talk about that as well.
ミチノク峠
嗯，确实如此。关于团队成员之间的意见分歧，保持模糊化是非常重要的，虽然听起来不太好，但我认为这是最好的方法。这与黑白和偏见的讨论有关，我认为偏见与明确事物的黑白是相同的。
Well, let me think. Regarding differences of opinion with team members, it’s important to leave things ambiguous just as they are, even though it may sound bad, and in reality, I think it’s the best way. It’s kind of like the discussion of black and white and prejudice, but I believe that prejudice is the same as clarifying things in black and white.
将所有事物归为一类会导致摩擦，因此团队中重要的是即使存在不同的事物，也要共存。即使存在不同的事物，流动和共存是重要的。通过思考找到一种兼顾双方的最佳方法，我认为在团队成员之间的意见分歧中，停滞的事物会重新开始流动。换句话说，有一种复杂的东西叫做黑格尔的辩证法，a和b之间的争论，调解者会提出中间的意见，引导他们朝那个方向发展。因此，保持模糊化在许多事情中都是相当重要的。
Summing up everything as the same thing can cause friction, so what’s important in a team is coexistence, even if there are different things. It’s important to flow and coexist even with different things. By thinking about finding a compromise that combines the best of both worlds, I think that the things that were stopped by differences of opinion with team members will start moving again. Well, to put it another way, there’s something called Hegelian dialectics that’s a bit complicated, where there are a and b, and they’re arguing about something, but then a mediator comes in and suggests a middle ground, and words that lead in that direction, so leaving things gray like that is probably important for various things.
迫田
我觉得这就像是站在一个在行业中工作了30年的境地，哈哈。
No, I feel like I’m in a state where I’ve been in the industry for 30 years or something like that, you know, haha.
ミチノク峠
不不，我只是个小角色。也许我父亲会经常和家人谈论工作，听到这些谈话，或者在推特上看到公司问题的讨论，这让我产生了这样的想法。
No, no, I’m just babbling. I think my father talks a lot about work to our family, but I just hear those conversations and other stuff like the issues with that company on Twitter, and I guess that’s what led me to think this way.
迫田
是的，我想在这里稍微转个话题，作为后半部分的桥梁。经过这么多失败，ミチノク现在得出的结论是模糊化是最好的。在毕业制作时，他提到过“我在这里失败了”的经历。相反，我想请他介绍一下他心目中真正好的作品。
Well, let me see. I’d like to go back to the song arrangement to bridge the latter half here. As far as the connection point goes, after experiencing various failures, Michinoku-san has come to the conclusion that gray is the best. At the time of his graduation work, he talked about an episode where he failed and said, “I messed up here!” On the other hand, or rather, I don’t know if it’s the right way to put it, but it’s a form of introducing songs that Michinoku-san himself really liked and thought were good.
ミチノク峠
嗯，我在学生时代受到过一部作品的深刻影响，那是来自多摩美术大学的艺术家久野遥子，她在毕业制作中创作了一部动画。动画的标题和使用的曲子是同名的，叫做《Airy me》，曲子的艺术家是Cuushe。这部作品太出色了，我觉得非常美丽。因此，我一直想创作出如此精彩的作品，这种想法一直在我心中萦绕。
Um, there’s a work that left a great impression on me during my student days, and it’s by an artist named Haruko Kuno, who graduated from Tama Art University. She created an animation for her graduation project. The title of the animation and the name of the song used in it are the same, and the name is “Airy me”. The artist of the song used in the animation is Cuushe, but this work was so excellent and beautiful that I felt like I wanted to create something like this. So, this song from an animation work has become like a curse that continues to make me want to create something like this.
受到《Airy Me》的MV的启发
Impressed by Airy Me’s MV
迫田
您刚才提到过这首歌的故事，能否再分享一下这首歌的背景？
I was talking a little bit earlier, but could you please tell me again the story behind this song?
ミチノク峠
我第一次看到这部作品是在大学三年级时，参加了一个在东京学习动画的学生作品的选拔放映会。那是一个名为ICAF的活动，我第一次看到这部作品。它的技术水平让我惊讶，但更让我震撼的是它的美丽。具体来说，这种风格完全没有数字处理，只有最低限度的后期制作，全部是用彩色铅笔在黄色纸上手绘的。内容设定在医院，乍一看似乎描绘了护士和病人之间可爱的互动，但最终病人变成了一个可怕的怪物。它既美丽又可爱，但同时也描绘了黑暗的一面，形成了鲜明的对比。我在技术上和主题上都受到了很大的启发，心中充满了对创作这种作品的向往。因此，我在成为社会人后，仍然在YouTube上反复观看这部动画作品。
I first saw this work when I was a third-year university student, at a screening of selected works by students studying animation in Tokyo. It was an event called ICAF, and it was my first time seeing it. The technical excellence was amazing, but more than that, the beauty of the art was incredible. Specifically, the art style was all hand-drawn with colored pencils on yellow paper, without any digital processing, with just the bare minimum finish. The content was set in a hospital, and at first glance it seemed to depict a cute exchange between a nurse and a patient, but in the end, the patient turned into a grotesque monster. It was beautiful and cute, but at the same time, it depicted the dark side and contrasted with the grotesque elements. I was very impressed both technically and thematically, and I was filled with admiration and a desire to create this kind of work myself. I loved the work so much that even after I became a working adult, I watched that animation on YouTube many times for several years, almost as an obsession.
迫田
您刚才提到的心灵营养，内心的声音在出现时，控制它的意义，以及促进它的意义，观看这部作品让我不断地想“我也想创作出这样的作品”。这可能是我不断获得营养的方式。
That thing that was just talked about earlier, not about nutritional supplements for the heart, but when your inner voice comes out, it’s both about controlling it and promoting it. Watching this work might have been a way to keep providing that nutritional supplement, with the thought of making something like this someday and giving oneself encouragement.
ミチノク峠
是的，我想我确实从中获得了力量。
Well, I guess I was getting energy from that nature.
迫田
听到这些，创作者们一定会非常高兴听到这样的声音。因此，我认为ミチノク也在创作作品，以将这种感受传达给未来的创作者。
When I listen to that, I think that the creators are really happy to hear such voices from others, so I think that maybe Michinoku-san is also creating the work to convey the same feeling to other people who will make things in the future.
ミチノク峠
是的，如果能做到这一点，那就太好了。
Well, if that could be done, it would be great, wouldn’t it?
迫田
确实如此。我觉得，面对失败和困难时的态度在ミチノク的作品中得到了充分体现，这种无意识的流露。我认为正念的思维在其中占据了重要地位。
That’s true, isn’t it? Well, I think that the attitude towards facing failures and difficulties, like the one from earlier, is really projected in Michinoku-san’s work. I think it’s unconsciously seeping through. I feel like mindfulness thinking is really present in it.
例如，在《ミチノク峠》中，有一个叫鬼的山伏，他说“与山对话”。这显然是正念和冥想的体现。我认为，专注于当下意味着用全身去感受和与眼前的一切对话。因此，民俗学和土著文化中有很多追求这种状态的元素，所以选择这样的主题是很自然的。我现在觉得，ミチノク面对困难的态度也在他的作品中得到了体现，无论是有意还是无意。
For example, in the work “Michinoku Pass,” there’s a mountain priest named Oni, right? There’s a scene where he says “Let’s have a conversation with the mountain,” right? That’s definitely mindfulness and meditation, and I think it’s that kind of thinking. Well, I think that focusing on the present moment means feeling and having a conversation with everything in front of you with your whole body. So, I think that folkloristics and indigenous cultures aim for those kinds of things, so it’s natural that those themes are chosen. I now think that Michinoku-san’s attitude towards facing difficulties is also reflected in their work, whether intentionally or unintentionally.
ミチノク峠
是的，过去的困难以某种方式作为故事情节融入《ミチノク峠》，而且正如迫田所说，某些部分无意识地融入其中。
Well, there are aspects of adding past difficulties as episodes to Michinoku Pass as a way of honoring those memories, and also parts that, as Sakoda-san mentioned, are unconsciously included. Both seem to be present.
创意想法的发想例行公事
创意想法的发想例行公事是什么？
迫田
我听到您提到的关于困难和失败的“不要急躁”“不要思考”，我想了解一下在创作过程中，ミチノク是如何进行创意发想的，您有什么样的思维方式或例行公事？
I asked about the idea generation process and routine that Mr. Michinoku has while doing creative work, after hearing about the idea of “not rushing” and “not thinking” when faced with difficulties and failures as an essence. However, what is the process of generating ideas and what kind of things lead to inspiration?
ミチノク峠
在我作为公司员工的时期，我从事游戏设计工作，正是将创意付诸实践的工作。因此，我在那时学到的方法，加上我自己的人生经历，有两个方面。首先，在公司工作时，当我收到一个题目时，我会对其进行大量研究，寻找最合适的答案。虽然可能找不到100%完美的答案，但总会找到接近的答案。在找到答案后，我会加入自己的想法，看看如何能更好地实现它。这个过程就是将创意落地。
During my time as a company employee, I worked in game design, so I was doing the job of bringing ideas to life. Therefore, there are two things that I learned during that time: the methods I was taught and, in addition, my own life experiences. As for the methods I learned during my time as a company employee, when given a topic, I would research it thoroughly, looking for the most optimal answer for that topic. I might not find a 100% perfect answer, but I would find a close one. After finding an answer, I would then add my own thoughts on how to improve it and bring it to life. That’s the process of dropping an idea and developing it.
对某个创意的发想方法是进行深入研究，但这并不是唯一的方法。通常，我在生活中会看到和听到各种事物，还有我的兴趣和偏好。我也会关注这些事物，并将其作为我自己的储备。虽然关注自己感兴趣的事物并扩展自己的视野是重要的，但仅仅依赖自己的兴趣会导致对某个题目的创意偏向。因此，在创作时，我会对题目进行深入研究。我已经很长时间在记录自己的想法，但出乎意料的是，这些想法在实际创作中往往无法使用，显得很肤浅。
One method of dropping an idea is to research it thoroughly, but it’s not the only way. Normally, I would see and hear various things in my daily life, as well as my own hobbies and preferences. I also pay attention to things and keep them in stock as part of my own repertoire. While it’s important to pay attention to things that interest you and expand your antennae, relying solely on your own interests will only lead to biased ideas for a given topic. Therefore, when making something, I research the topic thoroughly. I’ve been writing down my own ideas for a long time, but surprisingly, they often don’t work when it comes to actual production. They tend to be shallow.
这些想法有时会成为灵感的起点，但在我看来，深入研究题目时获得的信息更为重要。因此，如果试图在没有依赖自己储备的情况下发想创意，就会陷入泥潭，永远无法形成。因此，我始终保持警觉，努力学习更多的东西。即使急于学习更多，也未必有帮助。重要的是，即使是自己不喜欢的事物，也要去看，忍耐着去欣赏作品的优点，而不是在未能发现优点的情况下浪费时间。因此，我认为在必要时，拾取自己的兴趣和偏好，同时进行研究是很重要的。
迫田
从这个角度来看，ミチノク在面对题目时，进行大量研究并将信息和事实作为创意的精髓，然后将其与自己的观点融合，最终升华为创意。
Regarding that, Michinoku-san has a stance of researching extensively during the process of coming up with ideas in response to a given topic. The information and facts gathered during the research serve as the essence, and by combining them with their own opinions, they elevate them into ideas.
ミチノク峠
通过选择一个主题并在此基础上进行思考，我认为这种方法会使得创意更为灵活。当我没有主题时，往往会到达自己无法到达的部分。因此，确定主题，或者说概念是非常重要的。
By choosing a theme and focusing on it during exercise, I think that the approach becomes closer, or rather more flexible ideas can be generated. When I think without a theme, I can reach parts that I couldn’t have reached myself. Therefore, deciding on a theme, or rather a concept, is important.
迫田
确实如此。用“主题”这个词来表达，可能会让人感到更自由，但如果没有这样的框架，创意就会变得模糊，无法增强。因此，在一定程度上，设定框架并收集大量事实和信息以增强这个框架是必要的。正因为有了明确的主题，信息的整合也会变得更加清晰，新的信息更容易融入其中。当将自己的观点与这些信息融合时，积累的事实和观点会很好地结合，从而产生出最佳的创意。
Well, this way of thinking is similar to that of a creative advertising agency’s creator, I thought while listening. In the end, Michinoku-san probably has a strong desire to make difficult-to-understand things understandable through the power of art and creativity, and that’s probably why he follows such a thought process when facing creative work. Making difficult-to-understand things understandable is the power of art, creativity, and design, so Michinoku-san has a great sense for it and a strong desire to do so, which is why works like “Michinoku Pass” are produced.
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