Guest, Personality

Guest: Masashi Kimura from Room6

Born in 1972, currently 50 years old. After graduating from a computer specialized school, he aimed to work in the gaming industry but ended up becoming a business engineer. In 2010, he started his own business with the desire to develop iPhone applications, inspired by the release of the iPhone in 2007. He realized that game development could also be done on the iPhone and started developing smartphone games around 2013.

From around 2015, he has participated in many indie game events both domestically and internationally. Around 2017, he started developing console games for Nintendo Switch. In 2019, he began working as an indie game publisher through connections with developers he met at events. In 2020, he started operating the indie game label “Yokaze” which collects games from around the world.

Personality: Yuuki Sakoda

After working for a telecommunications company and a comprehensive advertising agency, he started an anime planning and production company and produces music videos and films. In 2021, he moved to Kyoto and started working on promoting the entertainment industry in Kyoto. He is currently also working in the entertainment field of manga and audio. He is planning and producing audio dramas and webtoons. In addition, he serves as a producer and advisor for multiple entertainment companies.

#01

Student days aiming for the gaming industry…
Daily life of a business systems engineer
The reawakening of passion for games with the advent of the iPhone
Interview with Taiyo Shiiba, the composer for “world for two”
The importance of music in indie games
The significance of music, scenarios, graphics, and game systems

#02

From various life events to starting an independent business
Motivation for game development accelerated by participating in indie game events
The charming office in Demachiyanagi, Kyoto
Games and monetization
The nourishment received from anime during tough times
The final push to make games more enjoyable
The importance of test players and the difficulty of judgment

#03

While video media is a linear format, games are…
Games with interactive elements are the pinnacle of complex systems
What Room6 and Yokaze Label want to provide based on this understanding
Meeting Hako Seikatsu at a pixel art event
Starting the publishing business in 2019
Creating game works as if they were one’s own children
The development of Phantom AP advanced well with excellent collaboration among creators
The latest work will be released when it is completed

After experiencing various life events, I decided to start my own business.

Sakoda

In Episode 1, Mr. Kimura talked about his career before starting his own company. In the latter half, he also talked with Daisuke Shiiba about music and indie games, as well as specific work. In Episode 2, I would be happy to hear more about Mr. Kimura’s career and the secrets of the world of works created by room6. By the way, I was curious if Mr. Kimura, who loves games, had made games during the 15 years he worked as a business engineer without going into the game industry…?

Kimura

For those 15 years, I was desperate to survive and I only worked. Although there were life events such as marriage and the birth of children, I had almost no time to play games. It feels like I completely forgot about them.

Sakoda

I think that in the early twenties to mid-thirties, there are many positions that require a view of the entire picture, such as design and planning. While taking on that responsibility, I can only imagine how difficult it must be to also have a family and children growing up. Personally, I am not married and have no children, but I believe it would be very challenging.

Kimura

Yes, it was tough.

Sakoda

It sounds like it was tough for you. But did you become independent and then your passion for gaming increased all at once?

Kimura

Yes, that’s right. It’s like remembering something you really forgot. It’s like feeling “Oh!”.

Sakoda

Uh huh. So, did you have a moment where you were like, “this is a game!” that was sparked by being inspired by the iPhone? Was there some kind of catalyst? Was it because you played a specific title that you really enjoyed, or something like that?

Kimura

Well, let me see. I didn’t really have anything to say about playing other titles, but around 2015, I learned about game events and indie game events that were made for smartphones, and that’s what got me started participating in them.

Sakoda

Does “participate” mean as a customer?

Kimura

No, it’s from the side of the store. Initially, I believe it was Tokyo Indie Game held in Tokyo.

Motivation for Accelerating Game Development through Exhibiting at Indie Game Events

Kimura

Let me see, I participated in a game event and that was the trigger. It was a lot of fun. Everyday people who didn’t know anything about us played the game I created and gave me feedback. Also, media people came, like Famitsu. It was like they were covering us and I thought, “This is a world I don’t understand but it’s amazing.” I’ve never been involved in that kind of thing before, so it was fun. Anyway, I got really hooked on participating in that game event, which was a big turning point for me.

Sakoda

I see. Oh, but that’s interesting. It’s not that there was a game that inspired them a lot, but they went to that event and saw the faces of the people who played their game and enjoyed it, which made them realize how fun it was to make games.

Kimura

That’s right. If we were just making and selling games, we might not have continued for so long. I was surprised that there are so many people doing the same thing. Well, it’s more like we became companions and discovered a world we didn’t know at all.

Sakoda

It seems that they started making games in earnest around 2013, and when they exhibited their game at an event in 2015, they were surprised to see so many people enjoying their game. At that time, they also saw that there were other people who were making games in the same way, right?

Kimura

Well, yes, I was really shocked. Since then, I’ve been getting rid of everything I can, and it feels like I’ve been doing it all the time. There’s a big indie game event called “Bit Summit” in Kyoto, and it’s really great. It’s held locally, so I feel motivated to work hard on indie games.

Sakoda

Yes, it would be great to have such a big event in our local area. Um, is room6 the company that started up at that time?

The emergence of the iPhone and the resurgence of my passion for gaming

Kimura

Well, originally it was a different company. Actually, we created a joint company called room6 to release the brand and title of the game. This was because we didn’t want our client at the time to know about it. We didn’t want to be seen as “making games”, so we created a separate company. We wanted to do it secretly.

Sakoda

So it’s already been unified now.

Kimura

Yes, that’s right. We’ve already merged and turned our main business into a company called Room6.

Sakoda

I see. So it has become a company with a cool office in Demachiyanagi. By the way, when I say cool here, I mean the Kyoto value of cool, not the general value of cool. Well, I also recently visited that person’s house, and I was surprised to see that such a modern building exists. I felt that it would be really cool in the summer and cold in the winter over there.

Kimura

Winter is cold, isn’t it? Although midsummer is hot, the hallway is cool. At first, I endured without an air conditioner, haha. I managed to endure until mid-August, but now it’s impossible~. It has become much hotter compared to about 10 years ago. I feel like it was a little cooler 10 years ago.

About Games and Monetization

Kimura

At that time, there were originally about five employees, and although it’s not a story of failure, the smartphone business and business-related work that we had been doing before were not going well at all, and the company was on the verge of closing. At that time, a young designer who joined the company with me couldn’t be suddenly dismissed, so the two of us continued the business by participating in events together as a designer and a team of two. At one point, we shrank and specialized only in games to become a smaller company.

Sakoda

So, even though it’s difficult to monetize through games, you’re still making them because you want to, and as a result, it’s been tough to generate cash flow?

Kimura

Well, yes. I made it, but the game didn’t sell at all. It really didn’t make any money.

Sakoda

When did you start thinking that the money, which wasn’t worth anything, began to be worth something? How many years has it been?

Kimura

No, this is really a story from around last year or the year before. Until then, it was like a so-called “super bicycle operation”, and I still wonder how we managed to survive.

Sakoda

Ahaha. Well, I think that platform has been spreading quite a bit, and games have become available for purchase from various places, but I think that’s something that happened recently. I think that’s also becoming a factor in game sales.

Kimura

Yes, that’s right. Regarding the monetization of games, there are cases where games don’t sell well, and there are also cases where it costs too much money to create the game in the first place. Games themselves are a business of upfront investment, but it feels like we’re just doing it without knowing when we can recover the initial investment. That’s the feeling of it.

Sakoda

I see. In the latter half, I would like to hear about the worldviews of companies and works that may have just begun to stabilize, such as the worldviews of Room 6 and the “Yokaze” label, and the secrets that support them.

Nutrition I received from anime when I was feeling down

Sakoda

Towards the latter half, could you introduce the songs? I guess it would be more like an episode where you talk about songs that are connected to your experiences of failure.

Kimura

Yes, for the song, please play “Kimi ni Furete” by Riko Azuna.

Sakoda

Yes, what you heard is “Kimi ni Furete” by Riko Azuna. And it seems that Kimura-san has an episode when he listened to this song.

Kimura

Yes, well, let’s see. This song, um, is actually the theme song for the anime “Bloom Into You” that aired in the winter of 2018. At that time, it had been about three years since 2015, and since my games weren’t selling well, I was struggling to stay in the gaming industry. I did game subcontracting and worked on various games. I was fortunate enough to get various jobs related to games.

Game development is definitely unstable, and while working from home as a contractor might seem more stable, there are still many challenges. There may be cases where the product being developed is not good, or conflicts may arise. There are also times when communication with clients does not go well. We were also creating our own game, but it never sold, and contracting work may or may not go well (laughs). At that time, we were probably at a pretty low point in our company.

I started watching anime when I was in a period of injury, unable to go anywhere due to being on crutches while on a business trip. I was bored, so I started looking for interesting anime on Amazon Prime. Until then, I had been working really hard, so I didn’t have much time to watch anime. But when I started watching this anime, I fell in love with it again for the first time in a long time. I got super addicted, and watched every episode about 100 times (laughs).

Sakoda

Well, I’m in a position to create anime, but I also feel that when I’m feeling a little down, anime has this mysterious power to comfort me. Yeah. It’s tough to proactively consume media when you’re feeling drained. I think it’s difficult to read or play something by yourself. However, with something that’s just playing in the background, automatic media experiences can provide nourishment even during difficult times. So, I may have gotten a little addicted to creating anime in that sense, haha.

Kimura

Oh, it was really nourishing. Without this anime, I might have been broken-hearted. Yes, really.

One last push to make the game more interesting

Sakoda

I see, but creating that game is not an easy task, right? As mentioned earlier, even if it’s a commissioned project, it may not be possible to create it. Also, in the case of an original project, you have to invest in it and endure the process even if you don’t know whether it will sell or not. What happens after investing in it? I think you have to wait and see what happens. However, it’s not that stable. I have no idea because I haven’t done it before.

Kimura

Well, originally games are very unstable and the development process itself is unstable, so even if it’s a contracted company, it’s not something that can be done just by making it properly every day. In that sense, it didn’t go well.

Well, yeah. It’s not stable. I think game development as a contractor can be stable if you do it properly, but I’m not the type to be too serious and I’m more of an approximate type, so there are some parts that didn’t work out well. If you don’t do it properly, it won’t work out well.

Sakoda

I think anime is the same in that regard, and when creating original anime, I believe in following the same process. Even if you don’t know who will watch it or if it will make money, if you have a team you want to work with and a project you want to create, you might just create it with the little money you have. While there may be cases where the business model structure has changed and you can sell it first, you still won’t know if it will sell at first, so it’s an area where you can’t create without a strong will, to the point where you can’t die without creating it. It’s like a marathon, it’s extremely long.

I think you need that strong will to create, and there was something that Kimura-san told me at a different time that stuck in my memory. He said that in order to make a good game, the last few percent, I forget how much exactly, but that effort in the final few percent is important. Can I hear that story again?

Kimura

Well, let’s see. Regarding games, well, let’s see. They often say that the real last mile is the most important, but if it’s the very end, it’s not just one more mile, but rather until about three days before the master up, it’s not interesting anymore, or rather, I’ve really been thinking lately that games don’t get interesting until the very end. So everyone doesn’t know what will happen in the end. It’s like they’re all working hard to imagine things. Well, I think it’s strange, but I wonder if everyone believes that it will be interesting. I guess that’s just how it is.

Sakoda

Well, until about three days before uploading, I had a feeling that it wasn’t interesting anymore. If I persist till the end, will it become interesting? What is this last-minute effort all about?

Kimura

I wonder what it could be… I think it’s just a small thing, but maybe changing that little adjustment could make the game much more interesting. Especially in the first 10 minutes of starting the game. If something changes even a little bit, it feels like a sensitive and delicate thing that makes you want to keep playing and curious about what’s next. I really put all my effort into the first 10 minutes.

Sakoda

So, even when you go to the final line of production, it’s really important to stick to this minimum of 10 minutes until the very end and make an effort to make it more interesting, whether you do it or not, right?

Kimura

Well, there are many aspects of gaming that rely on user input and intuition, so intuitive elements are very important. That’s why some parts may be difficult to understand. There may also be things that remain uncertain until the end, but I think that’s just the nature of it.

Sakoda

Isn’t it true that when you play test it yourselves, you start to lose track of things because you’ve played it so many times?

Kimura

That’s right. It can be confusing (laughs).

The Importance of Test Players and the Difficulty of Judging

Sakoda

Get someone who has never done it before to play and get feedback. Sometimes, even if you get feedback at the timing, you may not be able to fix it, but if they say it’s not interesting, you have to respond to that. This is also quite important, isn’t it?

Kimura

That’s really tough, isn’t it? It’s a common situation where you have to make judgments about whether you can trust someone or not. As a director, it’s difficult to decide which direction to take. It’s really hard to choose.

Sakoda

That conversation around there is really interesting. Well, how do I say it, if you’re someone who knows a lot about that game, you might simulate it a little and think, “Oh, this part is really buggy, but if I say it now it might be a bother.” That kind of consideration is something that just arises in your head, right? So getting feedback from regular consumers is probably the closest thing to the truth, and probably the closest thing to the voice of the customer. However, from the perspective of the creators, that voice of the customer can sometimes be cruel. There are even things that can’t be undone.

Kimura

Well, yes. Actually, there is a possibility that the test player may not represent the attributes that we want to deliver, but we need to consider that carefully. It’s difficult to make a judgment on that. Since there are infinitely many human attributes, we may have to rely on intuition and instinct in the end. Maybe there are big game companies that have a methodology for this, but we are a small company, so we just do our best and hope for the best.